Most technologically advanced mil b/a rifles

#1
I'm not talking here about the best (from a military perspective), but the most technologically advanced from an engineering perspective.

I would say that, during the First World War, the laurels go to the P 14/M 17. This rifle is properly production engineered (for the period) in a way that neither the SMLE or Gew98 were. It represents the peak of manufacturing and ergonomics that can be attained in starting from a G 98 basis, and is clearly well thought through (the dogleg in the bolt handle and the position of the safety catch, for instance). It certainly had the best sights on the battlefield, and is in my humble opinion a much better rifle from most perspectives than the M 1903 Springfields that it served alongside.

For the Second World War though, the crown really has to go to the dastardly French for the MAS 36. Since this was basically a completely new rifle, they really could start from the ground up. From a production perspective, it really does have the minimum number of machining operations required to make the receiver, and the two-part stock helps production of that as well. From an ergonomic perspective it has everything that a rifle intended for a conscript army needs, and the only odd choice is why they cranked the bolt handle forward, since its positioning would have been ergonomically perfect had they just bent it straight down. Rear locking of course shortens the bolt throw and provides a good amount of receiver metal there for mounting a receiver sight. Perhaps the only other improvement would have been cooking on closing...

Thoughts?
 
#3
Mr Deputy,

I think I've seen that documentary... usual Discovery Channel shoite. Weaponology, was it? I don't know where they get their "experts" from, but often they are completely clueless twots...

Why don't people who "say the round was slow" look up some data? The standard military load is a 139 grain projectile at 2700 ft./s. To put it in perspective, 303 Mk.VII is 174gn @ 2440 fps.

It is a big hulking cartridge, and would have been full of powder back in the day.

All full power rifle cartridges are overkill anyway, and shooting a clay block at about 5 m is hardly an accepted ballistic test... did you see what 30 carbine did to the same block? Trashed it. And 30 carbine is genuinely underkill.

And breathe...
 
#4
EX_STAB said:
I take it we're not including sniper rifles or other limited issue models then?
aye, correct. must have at least been mass produced. But if you have any particularly interesting trials rifles in mind (from an engineering or ergonomics perspective), do tell about them
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#5
Looks good on telly though dun't it?
 
#6
stoatman said:
Mr Deputy,

I think I've seen that documentary... usual Discovery Channel shoite. Weaponology, was it? I don't know where they get their "experts" from, but often they are completely clueless twots...

Why don't people who "say the round was slow" look up some data? The standard military load is a 139 grain projectile at 2700 ft./s. To put it in perspective, 303 Mk.VII is 174gn @ 2440 fps.

It is a big hulking cartridge, and would have been full of powder back in the day.

All full power rifle cartridges are overkill anyway, and shooting a clay block at about 5 m is hardly an accepted ballistic test... did you see what 30 carbine did to the same block? Trashed it. And 30 carbine is genuinely underkill.

And breathe...
cf 7.62 NATO 147gr @2750 hmmmm
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#7
The sexiest weapon I've seen lately is the DSR-1. A GSG9 favourite.



Bullpup sniper rifle, with guaranteed sub 1/2 MOA using factory ammo.

A snip at £10k if you want one.
 
#8
Biped said:
The sexiest weapon I've seen lately is the DSR-1. A GSG9 favourite.



Bullpup sniper rifle, with guaranteed sub 1/2 MOA using factory ammo.

A snip at £10k if you want one.
It's a lot more ergonomic than it looks. A very tasty piece of kit indeed. Handles surprisingly well.

I'm not a fan of that Zeiss scope though - reticle in the second focal plane, not exactly what you want with a rangefinding reticle in my view... :roll:

I have a TRG22 which is very much a military B/A (sniper) rifle.
Hammer forged, chrome lined, green phosphated stainless barrel, super -precision action, superb ice proof trigger, asymmetric muzzle brake, geometrically brilliant bipod.....
Shoots 1/4 MoA with handloads. :)
 
#9
I forgot to mention in favour of the MAS that it has a bolt throw of significantly less than 90°.

One would think that they had learned something from the Lee Enfield system, wouldn't one?

Actually, I reckon that 3 small changes to the MAS 36 would have made it almost the equal of the No.4 on the battlefield:

-- 10 round magazine
-- don't crank the bolt handle forward
-- make it cock on closing
 
#10
 
#13
Plus, this thread is about the military bolt action rifle, and that is not what the Remington 700 is.

It's not even well engineered or anything! And I've got one too, and I like it...
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#14
stoatman said:
Plus, this thread is about the military bolt action rifle, and that is not what the Remington 700 is.

It's not even well engineered or anything! And I've got one too, and I like it...
The Marine Corps M40A1 version probably qualifies it
 
#15
stoatman said:
Plus, this thread is about the military bolt action rifle, and that is not what the Remington 700 is.

It's not even well engineered or anything! And I've got one too, and I like it...
It's certainly not well designed. There's one of Peter Sarony's custom jobs in my cupboard at the moment - not mine I hasten to add. Must have cost a small fortune (Circa £2500) and although it is accurate it's a sack of shit in the handling department, dreadful thing to shoot.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#16
EX_STAB said:
stoatman said:
Plus, this thread is about the military bolt action rifle, and that is not what the Remington 700 is.

It's not even well engineered or anything! And I've got one too, and I like it...
It's certainly not well designed. There's one of Peter Sarony's custom jobs in my cupboard at the moment - not mine I hasten to add. Must have cost a small fortune (Circa £2500) and although it is accurate it's a sack of s*** in the handling department, dreadful thing to shoot.
Swapping the bolt handle/knob sorts the handling if its in a decent stock. Not a home job, but easy work for a smith.
 
#17
Alsacien said:
EX_STAB said:
stoatman said:
Plus, this thread is about the military bolt action rifle, and that is not what the Remington 700 is.

It's not even well engineered or anything! And I've got one too, and I like it...
It's certainly not well designed. There's one of Peter Sarony's custom jobs in my cupboard at the moment - not mine I hasten to add. Must have cost a small fortune (Circa £2500) and although it is accurate it's a sack of s*** in the handling department, dreadful thing to shoot.
Swapping the bolt handle/knob sorts the handling if its in a decent stock. Not a home job, but easy work for a smith.
This had a big "tactical knob". Didn't sort it. It is converted to M14 mags and the whole trigger guard arrangement is shite. If you have your finger along the guard as you would before firing, you have to adjust your whole grip to get it IN the trigger guard.

Bolt release is an afterthought and impossible with gloved hands, trigger is single stage and totally shit, No provision for a proper bipod so it has one of those jury rigged Harris monstrosities on it, the comb is too low for the scope so a fabric cheekpiece has been laced on instead, sling swivels are weak and fiddly, muzzle brake is for show rather than really doing anything, fit and finish is poor.

shall I stop now? :D
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#18
EX_STAB said:
Alsacien said:
EX_STAB said:
stoatman said:
Plus, this thread is about the military bolt action rifle, and that is not what the Remington 700 is.

It's not even well engineered or anything! And I've got one too, and I like it...
It's certainly not well designed. There's one of Peter Sarony's custom jobs in my cupboard at the moment - not mine I hasten to add. Must have cost a small fortune (Circa £2500) and although it is accurate it's a sack of s*** in the handling department, dreadful thing to shoot.
Swapping the bolt handle/knob sorts the handling if its in a decent stock. Not a home job, but easy work for a smith.
This had a big "tactical knob". Didn't sort it. It is converted to M14 mags and the whole trigger guard arrangement is shite. If you have your finger along the guard as you would before firing, you have to adjust your whole grip to get it IN the trigger guard.

Bolt release is an afterthought and impossible with gloved hands, trigger is single stage and totally shit, No provision for a proper bipod so it has one of those jury rigged Harris monstrosities on it, the comb is too low for the scope so a fabric cheekpiece has been laced on instead, sling swivels are weak and fiddly, muzzle brake is for show rather than really doing anything, fit and finish is poor.

shall I stop now? :D
Like I said, depends on the stock, the AICS and McMillan ones don't have those issues. The old trigger was shiite, their latest one is decent enough not to need replacing.
Mil and police versions don't have muzzle brake as far as I know that is standard - could be anything. I fitted a small tactical knob on a modded handle which is fine
Not saying its brilliant, but for the money its good value and the common interchangeability with better components make it a good platform to upgrade.
 
#19
Alsacien said:
EX_STAB said:
Alsacien said:
EX_STAB said:
stoatman said:
Plus, this thread is about the military bolt action rifle, and that is not what the Remington 700 is.

It's not even well engineered or anything! And I've got one too, and I like it...
It's certainly not well designed. There's one of Peter Sarony's custom jobs in my cupboard at the moment - not mine I hasten to add. Must have cost a small fortune (Circa £2500) and although it is accurate it's a sack of s*** in the handling department, dreadful thing to shoot.
Swapping the bolt handle/knob sorts the handling if its in a decent stock. Not a home job, but easy work for a smith.
This had a big "tactical knob". Didn't sort it. It is converted to M14 mags and the whole trigger guard arrangement is shite. If you have your finger along the guard as you would before firing, you have to adjust your whole grip to get it IN the trigger guard.

Bolt release is an afterthought and impossible with gloved hands, trigger is single stage and totally shit, No provision for a proper bipod so it has one of those jury rigged Harris monstrosities on it, the comb is too low for the scope so a fabric cheekpiece has been laced on instead, sling swivels are weak and fiddly, muzzle brake is for show rather than really doing anything, fit and finish is poor.

shall I stop now? :D
Like I said, depends on the stock, the AICS and McMillan ones don't have those issues. The old trigger was shiite, their latest one is decent enough not to need replacing.
Mil and police versions don't have muzzle brake as far as I know that is standard - could be anything. I fitted a small tactical knob on a modded handle which is fine
Not saying its brilliant, but for the money its good value and the common interchangeability with better components make it a good platform to upgrade.
Think this an HS Precision stock. It's not a problem with the stock per se, it's the trigger guard.

I'm not sure they are such good value. I think perhaps the basic model is for once a year deer stalking but this notion that "there are lots of options to upgrade it" reminds me of the fact that you don't see people buying aftermarket upgrades for Porches as opposed to Vauxhall Corsas.

By the time you've done everything to it to make it up to the standard of a TRG or an AI-AW you could have had either for the same money.

I think a Tikka for the same money would be a much better purchase. FWIW....
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#20
I'll vote for the MAS36, simple, effective and with a round that was as good as the 8mm mauser and certainly as good as the current Nato 7.62 x 51.
Very simple to use and if it had been issued in big enough numbers may have made a real difference, as it was the French were in 1945 at least 20 years ahead of everyone else in self loading rifle design and the cartridge to feed it!
I found that the quickest way to close the bolt was to palm the rear of it and flick the bolt down with your fingers, no need for cock on closing only the Lee series did that and it was against the fashion!
 

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