More unsubstantiated BS about Deepcut

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by MikeMcc, Nov 30, 2004.

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  1. A 'leaked' report from Surrey Police has been leaked to the press. Even the report says that the allegations are unsubstantiated, but this hasn't stopped the press from using the headlines of 'Gang-rape at Deepcut'

    If the people involved want to formal complaints, these should be properly investigated and, if true, those involved should be punished severely. BUT, half of the items raised in the report are part and parcel of Army life:

    Made to swim through a cess-pit - there's no cess-pits there, it has sewage mains, though there are a lot of manky ponds in the woods around the camp that you sometimes go wading / swimming through.

    Paraded in their underwear - if we cocked up we were punished with change parades, etc. At one point it involved running around the (then) WRAC block in mess-tin order!

    Sexual humiliation - At the end of my basic training we had an almighty pi55 up, part of which involved the Dance of the Flaming Arrseholes. Everybody joined in and nobody thought it out of place.

    Nowadays, it seems that if the little darlings can't hack it they make a silly complaint that can now be used to try and destroy reputations with litttle or no supporting evidence.

    Bloody tragic :evil:
  2. Apparently thet were made to:

    "Roll in mud"

    That's not a privation - it's a job role.

    Perhaps I've been violated and should sue? I had to dig holes also, must be money in that.
  3. See what the nanny state has done to us all. Our little darlings can't hack a little bit of verbal and physical punishment in the form of crawling through mud etc.

    So when the opportunity arises to put the boot in and the possibility of some cash, off they go!

    And we all know what the media are like when they sniff anything controversial :roll:
  4. Think you’re right, I know of a couple of RLC recruits from my home town being chucked out for being too immature (being told to come back in 3 years and in the mean time join the TA)
  5. Come on chaps give them a break, most recruits are fine and do well and go off and do the business. Some, like thier instructors, are crap and never make the grade. We need to have the checks and balances at the Recruiting Offices and raise the joining age to at least 18. People need to stop playing the numbers game (and dont let DG ATRA tell us we don't have 'a numbers game' - becuase clearly we do). It we recuited a better quality we wouldn't get all this drama. Give them their public enquiry, nothing new will be found and the wet wingers will go away - part of the problem is the home life these kids have - Mums & Dads need to remember that values and standards begin at home - not at Deepcut!
  6. I haven't (yet) been able to discover if this latest saga is a rehash of the earlier allegations or a fresh whole new crop? If the civilian police gathered all this, where did the suggestion come from that people might speak to the Sibylls; only two anyway. Talk is of 8 rapes. Rape cannot be justified in any way as getting them ready for warfare, despite all the Iraq stories. How many of the 8 had made a fresh complaint at the time of the incident and how many waited until offered tea and sympathy.
  7. Considering as something like only 1 in 20 rape cases are actually reported, its a sad fact that most women dont make immediate complaints and generally do wait until something prompts them to come forward.
  8. 173 complaints. Most of them are trivial but a few a serious and will be followed up. Also bear in mind that some of these "complaints" aren't complaints as such, but simply incidents brought to the attention of investigators, so one tom saying:

    "Yeah, and the morning after we f*cked up, the Corporal had us out of bed at 0400 and running around the block in our underwear. F*ck it was cold."

    is construed as a "complaint" even though he hasn't actually objected to the events in question.

    However, what really gets my goat is MPs like Lembert Opick (who really ought to know better) calling for a public inquiry.

    What the f*ck for!? What's it going to prove that the internal inquiry, RMP investigation and CIVPOL investigation haven't already? We've had the DOC Audit! We've had ALI! We've got welfare and instructor training coming out of our f*cking ears!! Why do they want to waste my time and taxpayers money on a pointless f*cking finger-pointing exercise!?

    Sorry... quite annoyed.

  9. Seems anything in the press that has Deepcut, Blackwatch or Diana in the title is used to sell the papers regardless of how shallow the evidence is. The press will keep milking stories like this until the public get bored.
  10. I don't think any of us posting here would in any way, shape or form contenance condoning anything as extreme as this. It's just this latest saga is taking the form of a witch-hunt based on vague stories and mis-apprehensions that's being traded on by the media as if it's absolute fact.
  11. Mr_Fingerz

    Mr_Fingerz LE Book Reviewer

    There's going to be another review - not a full public enquiry. Ingram has said that it will happen, but not when.
  12. Minister for the Armed Forces, Adam Ingram MP, has announced a review by a fully independent figure into allegations of inappropriate behaviour during Army training.

    Minister for the Armed Forces, Rt Hon Adam Ingram MP
    Mr Ingram made the announcement in an oral statement to the House of Commons at 1230 on Tuesday 30 November 2004, responding to concerns over further allegations in a document from Surrey Police.

    The full statement is given below [Check against delivery]:

    Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement concerning the Surrey Police papers listing allegations of inappropriate behaviour during Army training.

    I should like to make clear first of all that the Army and the Ministry of Defence take issues of bullying, harassment and any form of mistreatment extremely seriously. We cannot compromise on the nature of our training, which must be sufficiently robust to prepare our soldiers for the considerable hazards and rigours of operations. An Army career has never been and never will be a soft option. But I should like to make it quite clear that violence and intimidation are not the means by which the Army produces the soldiers it needs. Our policy continues to be to bear down on such behaviour hard, and as far as is possible to eradicate it completely from our bases and training grounds. We are succeeding at this. Such behaviour has no place whatsoever in society, and it neither is it tolerated in the Army.

    I am aware that media coverage yesterday of the Surrey Police memorandum submitted to the Defence Select Committee on 13 October has given encouragement to those who have been calling for a public inquiry into the very sad events at Deepcut barracks. I should like to address these calls by setting out clearly what this document is and what actions are being taken in response to it.

    During the course of their recent investigation into the 4 Deepcut deaths, Surrey Police obtained numerous statements involving allegations of inappropriate behaviour at the base and elsewhere. In their 5th report published in March 04, Surrey Police alluded to evidence uncovered during their enquiries and indicated that some of these allegations may be subject to further examination in due course. At the Army’s request, in June 2004 Surrey Police provided two confidential schedules containing anonymous individual allegations. The first of these concerned allegations centred on 1995 and the second on the period 2001/02. A memorandum containing these same schedules was submitted to the HCDC for their 13 October evidence session with the Surrey Police and has been publicly available. I want strongly to refute the allegation that this is a leaked document. It is not. And I would call into question the motives of those in the media who have depicted it as such.

    There are 118 entries in the two schedules covering 173 separate allegations. 80 of the entries are from 1995. The level of detail is sparse, much of it is hearsay and much of the descriptive content is vague. Names have been excluded, as the material was provided in confidence to the Surrey Police. The nature of the allegations is wide-ranging. Some concern pay discrepancies, but the majority allege some form of physical or sexual harassment. Some of the allegations would appear to relate to the same incident or pattern of behaviour. 9 of the allegations concern rape: and all but 3 of these have been investigated or are still under investigation. Of the 3 not subject to investigation so far, in the police’s judgement, 2 are unsubstantiated hearsay accounts. Investigations to date have resulted in 1 known conviction. Within the total of 9 rape allegations there is one case of multiple rape, which is under investigation by the Surrey Police.

    Let me make the position on this document clear. In submitting their report the Police set out their views on the material: “It is important to point out that, to a great extent, the witness recollection is uncorroborated and untested and thus any examples cited should be treated with necessary and appropriate caution. Many of the examples have not been formally investigated at this time as the details were given more as background information as opposed to specific allegations.”

    Surrey Police have also made it clear that they will not be making any further inquiries themselves. The schedules have been examined by the Army and as a result Surrey Police were approached in September 04 with a view to obtaining consent for the relevant statements to be disclosed to the Royal Military Police. I am advised that the Surrey Police have contacted the individuals concerned and I understand that only 2 individuals have agreed to disclosure. The Royal Military Police will begin investigations into these 2 cases as soon as the relevant details have been made available by the Surrey Police.

    I have heard others talking about how this document proves that a culture of fear and violence existed at Deepcut barracks. We must be very careful here. This document does not contain evidence. It contains some allegations which have already been investigated and other allegations which are worthy of investigation, but have not yet been tested.

    Let me advise the House on how I intend to proceed. These are serious issues and while I am satisfied that all that can be done is being done, there is a need for this to be seen to be done. I therefore I accept the case for a further review by a fully independent figure and will be announcing details shortly.

    I wish to make one further point and that is to pay tribute to the many instructors and staff at our military training establishments who produce high quality, excellently trained and superbly motivated young men and women for our armed forces. We should not lose sight of this fact.

    All this for 2 people who have agreed to disclose complaints. 8O
  13. Mr_Fingerz

    Mr_Fingerz LE Book Reviewer

  14. Black Watch accused in Diana Deepcut scandal 8)
  15. I've already e-mailed the Sun's editor over this story. More loopholes in it than that BS piece in the Mirror over the photos. When have the RLC had Squadrons? The silliness of a 'special-forces' soldier in the guardroom. When did we start using spamisms (i.e. chow-house) and, finally, the BS about the paperwork over the firearms.

    If the civvy cops took two years to find him, how comes the mysterious RMP visitors managed to get hold of him so easily. If his 'evidence' is so damning why didn't he do anything about it over the last few years, or is it that he sees a way to cash in on it?

    I suggested that this witch-hunt has gone well beyond a normal investigation and is damaging to reputation of the RLC, the Army in general and, in particular, the decent instructors who make up the over-whelming majority of the workforce on the base.