More Medal ID, help vastly appreciated

Fugly

LE
DirtyBAT
#1
After the unfortunate passing of my Grandmother, and me being the sole member of my family serving in the military, her fathers medals have been passed on to me and i would greatly appreciate some info from those of you in the know.

As you can see, the medals are still unmounted and in the original packaging they were presented in - he was killed on the Somme and they were given to his family posthumously.











The certificate below came with them, so i naturally assume these are indeed the British War medal and the Victory Medal, but which ribbon goes with which??!!!





There is also this, seemingly issued are a memorial to his falling in battle, its quite hefty (5 inches in diameter), does anyone know any more about it?





Also, and this is not WW1 related i think, there is also this:





It appears my great-grandad was a bit of a mean shot, and i have a notebook detailing his various scores in competitions and the like from 1910 up to 1914. Does anyone know anything more about this? Is it a civilian club he was in before he went off to war?

Front page of notebook shown - it appears he was very meticulous and recorded every detail.

 
#2
War medal on the left, Victory on the right. The ribbons are in the same order.
 
#3
Tartan Terrier's dead right the war Medal and Victory Medals in that order. However, best to keep them as they are, unmounted and in their boxes as this adds to their value - not suggesting for one moment that you sell them. It is so rare for Great War medals to have survived unmounted in their original boxes of issue and for the ribbons still to be in their issue envelopes.

The "Death Plaque" was sent with a certificate. If you don't have this, you can apply for one from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. You'll need to supply all the service details, which should be really simple as they will appear on the rim of both medals. The plaque is also known as the "Death Penny" and is about 5" in diameter or thereabouts. The CWGC will also give you info on where he was KIA and also on which memorial he is commemorated.
 
#4
Sorry -forgot to mention about the Bell Medal. This is a civvy .22 rimfire or garden gun club. I suggest that if he lived in Liverpool, then this is where you should begin your search. Small-bore clubs were all the rage in the late 19th century although interest dwindled by the 1950's in favour of air-rifles (no licence required). Military-attached rifle clubs tend to bear the arms or other crest on the obverse with details of the competition on the reverse, along with dates.
 
#5
Here you go Fugly:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1612124

All his details are there. It looks as though he has no known grave, as his name is on the Menin Gate.

You can also print this off, with the photo of the Menin Gate in Ypres:

In Memory of
Private FREDERICK FELL

49056, 20th Bn., The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
who died age 30
on 02 August 1917
Son of the late Henry Crossland Fell and Eliza Ann Fell; husband of Hannah Fell, of Normanby Villa, Peploe Lane, New Holland, Hull.
Remembered with honour
YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Commemorated in perpetuity by
the Commonwealth War Graves Commission
 

Fugly

LE
DirtyBAT
#7
Monetary value not a consideration, but i am well aware they are worth more still in the original (90 years old!) box.

What i was contemplating was getting them mounted, then sealed and framed along with the "Death Penny" so i can put it on the wall. I'm very torn with the idea though, it must indeed be rare for these items to be in such untouched condition.
 

Fugly

LE
DirtyBAT
#8
Two posts arrived whilst i was typing!!!

Thanks for the help gents, passing you a virtual pint.
 
#9
You can still mount the medals with new modern medal ribbon, and preserve the original ribbon/boxes and certificates.
This is what I did with my Grandfather medals, and group photograph.
 

Fugly

LE
DirtyBAT
#10
I have some very old photos of his memorial, but they are not dated - now glad to know it is the Menin Gate.

What is strange is that he is listed on the gate as a Lance Corporal, and i have a photo of him in service dress wearing said rank, yet he is listed by the CWGC as a Private, also his medal certificate states he is a private. Hopefully it was acting rank, and i am not opening up a can of worms on a fallen family hero.
 
#11
Thanks for the virtual pint Fugly! It's bloody warm here on the edge of the Fens...

One other tip, the Victory Medal (the gilded one) probably still has the original coat of gilt on it. Don't be tempted to polish it off, as the gilding finish was "original". Needless to say, most recipients polished up their gongs and removed the gilding from the brass underneath.

We have a "Death Penny" in the family. It was named for a great uncle who's buried in Gaza... I wonder what state his grave is in these days?
 

Fugly

LE
DirtyBAT
#12
Both medals are completely unpolished, and probably have DNA on them dating back 90 years.

As an aside, what if anything are they worth in this original condition? Let me state now i have NO intention of parting with them, and i don't think they could be worth much as they are not exactly hard to come by. Just curious.

Petriburg - sorry to hear your family members grave is probably still a battlefield. We have no definate location either - scribbled notes say he was buried by Pioneers east of Zillebeke, having been killed in an advance from "Sanctuary Wood" (02/08/17). Yet to reasearch this.

As I am having one, i now pass you a virtual G+T.
 

Fugly

LE
DirtyBAT
#13
Mike_2817 said:
You can still mount the medals with new modern medal ribbon, and preserve the original ribbon/boxes and certificates.
This is what I did with my Grandfather medals, and group photograph.
A fine idea, and one i will probably pursue. Everything can still be preserved this way, cheers.
 
#14
Petriburg, my great grandfather is also buried in Gaza. Only family member to have visited it was my grandmother on her way home from Baghdad (husband was in Iraq Levies) in 1931. Then the Gaza cemetary was sand only between the rows. Through various means and the kindness of a UNDP engineer who went to the cemetary in 2002 I now have some photos - attached - I saw the CWGC PR chap at Hampton Court a couple of years ago and he was not aware of CWGC having any recent ones of Gaza, other than mine. However there was an anti-English raid on the cemetary a couple of years ago and several gravestones were damaged, not sure of outcome. I have a couple more, if you want them or in hi res, please do PM me. Tich23
 

Attachments

#15
Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery in Gaza was sadly vandalised in 2004 in protest over the war in Iraq. It was an isolated incident, and was repaired to its former well kept state.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=535772004

Other Commonwealth War Graves Cemeteries inside Iraq were found to be in a poor state of maintance but not vandalised. These are being upgraded by the CWGC
 
#16
Fugly said:
Mike_2817 said:
You can still mount the medals with new modern medal ribbon, and preserve the original ribbon/boxes and certificates.
This is what I did with my Grandfather medals, and group photograph.
A fine idea, and one i will probably pursue. Everything can still be preserved this way, cheers.
P.S. to above. I used a scanned copy of the photo, and replaced it last year with a new copy as the photo had started to fade.
Still haviing the original made this possible.
 

Ventress

LE
Moderator
#17
It is nice to know another local man has the pride in the upkeep of the cemetery and has been awarded a MBE accordingly.

Thank you, sir.
 
#18
Fugly said:
Both medals are completely unpolished, and probably have DNA on them dating back 90 years.

As an aside, what if anything are they worth in this original condition? Let me state now i have NO intention of parting with them, and i don't think they could be worth much as they are not exactly hard to come by. Just curious.
Petriburg - sorry to hear your family members grave is probably still a battlefield. We have no definate location either - scribbled notes say he was buried by Pioneers east of Zillebeke, having been killed in an advance from "Sanctuary Wood" (02/08/17). Yet to reasearch this.

As I am having one, i now pass you a virtual G+T.
There are two points to note here. The War Medal and Victory Medal pair are not difficult to come by, but are usually priced by Regts. An average price for the Liverpool Regt pair would be £25 - £30.

However, the 'death penny' on its own goes for around £50.

In your particular case, with all the documents, the original boxes, the death plaque (which only has the person's name not Army details so difficult to trace separately) and the shooting medal makes them very desirable especially to a collector for that Regt. A conservative estimate would be around a £100, but that depends where you sell them, to whom etc. :wink:
 
#19
add on the priemium for him being a casualty i say you are looking at the best part of £250 if you wanted to replace them with a simaler set if they were ever stolen/lost/sold not saying that any of that will happen but for all the paperwork plaque medals being in mint condition still with all the origional packaging and that all being in mint condition i think £250 is a conservative estamte
 
#20
I agree with balldrick. While £30 is average for the Medal pair, being mint & boxed (named) and matched with the Plaque would fetch at least £100 if not more.

Add to this the provenance of the shooting medal and other documents you would Start at auction at £250 at the least.
 

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