MOD to allow people with HIV to enlist

Polyester

War Hero
Indeed btw.

If you disagree with something I or others say btw don't just 'use the buttons'.

I am not entrenched in my views and won't shout you down with ad hominems or shut down conversation with a shake of my head head tutting 'not in my day' ad nauseum.

I post on ARRSE not to pontificate from my pulpit of irreversible beliefs though to be challenged on transient perspectives across all topics by numerous contributors with experiences different to mine. I am here to learn, not win points.

The analogy aside which I'll concede was crap, what do you disagree with?
I think you have aimed this at the wrong bloke mate. I wasn't replying to you and I didn't disagree with your post?

E2A; Yep, just checked. I was replying to retired bloke. I think it was a different poster who disagreed with you.
 
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I think you have aimed this at the wrong bloke mate. I wasn't replying to you and I didn't disagree with your post?

E2A; Yep, just checked. I was replying to retired bloke. I think it was a different poster who disagreed with you.

You're right, forgot to @ the person I was replying to.
 
Without too much thread drift, I have a feeling that there will be a cure for HIV within a decade.

The whole issue of HIV+ soldiers may be resolved before it even becomes necessary to actually decide whether to deploy one on ops.
 

Chef

LE
There isn't a long term in the circumstances that you mentioned.
Um if an HIV sufferer chooses to make the military a long term career then they are likely, of necessity currently, to be treated differently. That would be long term wouldn't it?
 

QRK2

LE
Um if an HIV sufferer chooses to make the military a long term career then they are likely, of necessity currently, to be treated differently. That would be long term wouldn't it?

You said " if captured how well will requiring drugs to manage HIV play with captors who are not averse to burning prisoners alive or lobbing people off tall buildings?"

No long term after that event.
 

Pagan-Image

Old-Salt
As mentioned previously, I spent the vast majority of my career downgraded due to having a heart condition (In fact i had a heart attack whilst living in Germany).

The whole process of being MLD is great IF you have a CoC who are open enough to let you serve to your limits, or you are a high enough rank to say "Im off to the quacks old chaps, back in an hour" without having to get the approval of 18 line managers first.

If however you are in a toxic unit (as I was) where SNCOs and Junior Officers would block your access to appointments or discriminate against you due to a medical condition, then there is a major issue. Individuals in that situation will feel pressured to be 'upgraded' and ignore serious medical conditions. I know as I have seen it, and been discriminated against for not doing it.

Even going so far as to block any chance of promotion due to a permanent condition, It was policy to not allow you onto the Senior CLM if you were downgraded, so you had a glass ceiling even if you were good at your job.

I would worry that those with HIV would risk themselves and others in these situations.
 

Chef

LE
You said " if captured how well will requiring drugs to manage HIV play with captors who are not averse to burning prisoners alive or lobbing people off tall buildings?"

No long term after that event.
The long term aspect might have been covered in this post #150 to which you referred:

'Except might they, understandably, not be deployed in the first place? The practical aspects of this move are all eminently achievable. It's the, less easy to predict and control, psychological and PR aspects that may cause problems in the long term. Hopefully not but the government has history of pushing plans without too much concern for the practicalities, the dangerous dogs act, the assorted gun laws and in the US the assault rifle legislation amongst others.'

Post #148 (which you edited a bit) also mentions the effects pro or con of different treatment on general morale:

'This is a very informative thread and I have no issues personally with the move, I expect most people in the UK are used to the idea and will go along with it both inside and outside the services.

However what will the net result be, on morale, when some personnel are always going to be held back from deployment, meaning others will be less likely to get rear party duties?

Also given some of the places the military have been deployed in recent years, if captured how well will requiring drugs to manage HIV play with captors who are not averse to burning prisoners alive or lobbing people off tall buildings?

I'm not sure the average third world fighter will be too open to a discussion on the difference between HIV and AIDS nor likely to appreciate that it is not necessarily the sole preserve of the gay community. HIV=AIDS=Gay and off the building you go.'

Is this the ten minute argument or the full half hour?:)
 
I've not read fully through this thread to be honest - but has anyone mentioned Medical Training regarding these HIV+ people?

Often we practiced actually inserting a canula into people for real - sometimes with plenty of blood spatter - won't this be an issue for obvious reasons (if our nominated volunteer is HIV+)?

I specifically say 'Medical Training', because if it's a real casualty arguably first aid and an IV if necessary will be administered without question - I'm just thinking of this in training practice.
 

Powerbroker

Old-Salt
Different set of symptoms, mostly debilitating if the meds are not taken regularly. It's a different kettle of fish however if the person is kept in a workshop or office role then perhaps it would be OK, they would just not be able to deploy on operations where the risks to them or others would be significant if they are unable to take the meds at the right time.

HIV does not really have any symptoms until it develops into AIDS, which can take years and years (untreated of course). Untreated Diabetes type 1 leads to a very quick degradation in a persons ability to function
I used to work for 5th Division at Shrewsbury, and we had an OC who was type 1 diabetic and on a insulin pump, probably no use in the field but as an office based manager he was brilliant. So no bar as far as I could see.
 
As mentioned previously, I spent the vast majority of my career downgraded due to having a heart condition (In fact i had a heart attack whilst living in Germany).

The whole process of being MLD is great IF you have a CoC who are open enough to let you serve to your limits, or you are a high enough rank to say "Im off to the quacks old chaps, back in an hour" without having to get the approval of 18 line managers first.

If however you are in a toxic unit (as I was) where SNCOs and Junior Officers would block your access to appointments or discriminate against you due to a medical condition, then there is a major issue. Individuals in that situation will feel pressured to be 'upgraded' and ignore serious medical conditions. I know as I have seen it, and been discriminated against for not doing it.

Even going so far as to block any chance of promotion due to a permanent condition, It was policy to not allow you onto the Senior CLM if you were downgraded, so you had a glass ceiling even if you were good at your job.

I would worry that those with HIV would risk themselves and others in these situations.

This reminds me of back in the day, we had a bod who had had a bad motorbike accident and was crocked for life as a result. He was still loaded onto SMC (senior CLM for REME at the time) where of course he was excused much of the physical stuff. The idea I guess was that he still had value in his downgraded capacity and there were still postings/roles where that value was needed.

Some might think that he should be been med discharged but that was the Corp and Army decision at the time, and I am sure that promotion was open to him and he would still have had to earn it on a merit/performance basis.
 

Pagan-Image

Old-Salt
This reminds me of back in the day, we had a bod who had had a bad motorbike accident and was crocked for life as a result. He was still loaded onto SMC (senior CLM for REME at the time) where of course he was excused much of the physical stuff. The idea I guess was that he still had value in his downgraded capacity and there were still postings/roles where that value was needed.

Some might think that he should be been med discharged but that was the Corp and Army decision at the time, and I am sure that promotion was open to him and he would still have had to earn it on a merit/performance basis.
And that is the way it should be.

By the time I left it was fully fit or fcuk off. As a P3 MLD who had just received a high level commendation for my trade role and been put recommended for FofS training, I was told that I couldn't keep my 3rd as I couldn't attend CLM due to being downgraded and couldn't attend FofS training as I wouldn't be SNCO.

This was pretty standard around 10 years ago.

So I left and now earn more than the ex Troopie I manage
 

QRK2

LE
This reminds me of back in the day, we had a bod who had had a bad motorbike accident and was crocked for life as a result. He was still loaded onto SMC (senior CLM for REME at the time) where of course he was excused much of the physical stuff. The idea I guess was that he still had value in his downgraded capacity and there were still postings/roles where that value was needed.

Some might think that he should be been med discharged but that was the Corp and Army decision at the time, and I am sure that promotion was open to him and he would still have had to earn it on a merit/performance basis.

I recall an Infantry SNCO with fewer than the normal number of feet as a result of an accident. I lost track of him but he was trying for an SASC transfer as apparently he could have a full career there.
 
I wonder if the policy is primarily aimed at the RN and RAF (stop sniggering at the back), where managing this sort of medical problem is fairly trivial, as opposed to the front line of the Army/RM. However, I suspect there's no way that the rules could be changed to exclude one or part of one Service.

My thought is that the vast majority of RN and RAF personnel will not operate in remote and austere conditions. Even a P2000 (warfighting utility of a housebrick) has sufficient refrigerated space to carry tablets to spare.
 
Even going so far as to block any chance of promotion due to a permanent condition, It was policy to not allow you onto the Senior CLM if you were downgraded, so you had a glass ceiling even if you were good at your job.
Which is the way it should be.
 
I wonder if the policy is primarily aimed at the RN and RAF (stop sniggering at the back), where managing this sort of medical problem is fairly trivial, as opposed to the front line of the Army/RM. However, I suspect there's no way that the rules could be changed to exclude one or part of one Service.

My thought is that the vast majority of RN and RAF personnel will not operate in remote and austere conditions. Even a P2000 (warfighting utility of a housebrick) has sufficient refrigerated space to carry tablets to spare.

There is a possibility is that they might end up somewhere outside their comfort zone.

Also, ships do occasionally engage in warfare and the med supplies may be lost.
 

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