MOD to allow people with HIV to enlist

[Fang_Farrier]

In a normally sterile, safe environment with additional help not to far away?

No.

 

[Ho2331]

Coaching youth rugby, nose bleed, gloves on.

Universal precautions.

Absolutely. Assess the risk to yourself and on with the PPE.

 

[GDog]

Absolutely. When I done my first aid/first response training as a Prison Officer it was constantly banged into us that you don't even touch someone without wearing PPE.
Ideally that PPE would be a paper suit. Gloves, and a full face visor. The minimum PPE being a pair of gloves.
The point that I tried to make was that my response to different incidents was different because I knew that one particular con that I had to deal with I knew straight away that he had HIV and if memory serves me right Hepatitus C as well. Where as another stabbing that I dealt with I didn't know whether or not the con had any infectious diseases. I merely raised the point that I dealt with the prisoner whose medical history I didn't know better than I dealt with the prisoner whom I knew.
Alles Klar?

By "better" do you mean being more cautious or less?

Dodge the Hep C certainly.

For HIV, a person that you know is undetectable through medication is a lower risk than a person whose HIV status is unknown.

 

[Ho2331]

By "better" do you mean being more cautious or less?

Dodge the Hep C certainly.

For HIV, a person that you know is undetectable through medication is a lower risk than a person whose HIV status is unknown.

Let me explain the first time that I had to deal with a stabbing was when I was an officer on the exercise yard.
A con got stabbed five times in the back of the shoulder. And one of the entry wounds was quite deep.
I dealt with that incident quite well.
I didn't know the medical situation of that particular prisoner.
Yet another time, with a prisoner who I was familiar with, and who had been stabbed, I knew quite a bit of his medical history because he was on my landing. I had also taken him to the medical wing on a few occasions. I didn't do my job as well as what I could have done with this particular con because I knew that he was supposed to be HIV and Hep C positive.
Yes, such information is meant to be confidential between the medical staff and the prisoner but in reality the health care staff would usually tip us the wink if a prisoner with transmissable diseases was sent to us. Either them or the induction and reception staff anyway.

 

[Fang_Farrier]

Let me explain the first time that I had to deal with a stabbing was when I was an officer on the exercise yard.
A con got stabbed five times in the back of the shoulder. And one of the entry wounds was quite deep.
I dealt with that incident quite well.
I didn't know the medical situation of that particular prisoner.
Yet another time, with a prisoner who I was familiar with, and who had been stabbed, I knew quite a bit of his medical history because he was on my landing. I had also taken him to the medical wing on a few occasions. I didn't do my job as well as what I could have done with this particular con because I knew that he was supposed to be HIV and Hep C positive.
Yes, such information is meant to be confidential between the medical staff and the prisoner but in reality the health care staff would usually tip us the wink if a prisoner with transmissable diseases was sent to us. Either them or the induction and reception staff anyway.

In operating theatre patient was HIV and hep C.
Turned round to see anaesthetist is suddenly in an apron, double gloved and a mask.

We were in our usual, gowns, gloves, mask, eye protection.

The question we asked him, was why suddenly change his protocol?

Hep B is between 0.1% to 0.5% of the UK population. Given age and gender of average serviceman, it puts them in the higher estimate cohort. Even at 0.5%. That makes 3 Hep B carriers in an average infantry battalion.

Hepatitis B virus (HBV) - Blood borne viruses (BBV)

www.hse.gov.uk

Hep C is nearer 1%. That's 6 in a battalion.

Hepatitis C virus (HCV) - Blood borne viruses (BBV)

www.hse.gov.uk

Remember that Hep B is easier to catch than HIV, and Hep C easier yet.

It's not the HIV UU that is the concern medically, it's the other BBVs.

Perhaps my own stance and opinion on this issue is taken very much from a familiarity with this type of patients.

 

[stacker1]

No.

Well don't be shy, I'm curious to know.

I was a team medic in Afghanistan and thankfully I didn't have to put my short course skills to any use, but there was an incident we (all team medics) were put on standby for which was a mass casualties (20) event involving the booties, while I was stood out the med facility in FOB Inkermann trying to remember the basics, none of us were wear any PPE, if only everyone was calm and level headed with more medical training...

In the event it was just a few injured civvies the rest were dead so the real medical staff dealt with it.

 

[Fang_Farrier]

Well don't be shy, I'm curious to know.

I was a team medic in Afghanistan and thankfully I didn't have to put my short course skills to any use, but there was an incident we (all team medics) were put on standby for which was a mass casualties (20) event involving the booties, while I was stood out the med facility in FOB Inkermann trying to remember the basics, none of us were wear any PPE, if only everyone was calm and level headed with more medical training...

In the event it was just a few injured civvies the rest were dead so the real medical staff dealt with it.

I come under the category of real medical staff.
My experiences have been in various parts of the world other than Afghanistan.

Even in your situation, exactly what risk do you think you have been if one of those casualties had been HIV UU?

As opposed to an unknown hep B or C carrier?

Would you have been expected to perform exposure prone procedures?

 

[stacker1]

I come under the category of real medical staff.
My experiences have been in various parts of the world other than Afghanistan.

Combat situations in the middle of CP/PB in places other than Afghanistan?
If not your experiences can't really be compared can they?

Even in your situation, exactly what risk do you think you have been if one of those casualties had been HIV UU?

I don't know, my main point is the stupidity of thinking individuals can take daily meds for one illness in the middle of nowhere. In this specific case of injuries I'm pointing out those who talk about precautions aren't really talking about precautions in a hostile environment with mainly medically inexperienced soldiers with limited kit and facilities.

As opposed to an unknown hep B or C carrier?

Would you have been expected to perform exposure prone procedures?

You carry whatever you think is best at the time, but perhaps you can drop the pretense of comparing the shitholes that the Army sends people to, with fairly normal environments.

 

[Fang_Farrier]

Combat situations in the middle of CP/PB in places other than Afghanistan?
If not your experiences can't really be compared can they?


I don't know, my main point is the stupidity of thinking individuals can take daily meds for one illness in the middle of nowhere. In this specific case of injuries I'm pointing out those who talk about precautions aren't really talking about precautions in a hostile environment with mainly medically inexperienced soldiers with limited kit and facilities.




You carry whatever you think is best at the time, but perhaps you can drop the pretense of comparing the shitholes that the Army sends people to, with fairly normal environments.

This thread is specifically about the risks that an HIV UU poses. Not willy waving about who was exactly how where and when. Have I been in direct combat, no (don't think any of my Corps have for decades.)
Have I treated combat injuries, yes. Have I treated trauma away from civilisation, yes. Have I treated known BBV cases, yes. Have I treated trauma with less than ideal kit in less than normal environments, yes.

As frequently pointed out that risk is minimal, especially compared to the risks from unknown BBV carriers.

And even then the main risk is to those carrying out EPP, exposure prone procedures.

 

[stacker1]

This thread is specifically about the risks that an HIV UU poses. Not willy waving about who was exactly how where and when. Have I been in direct combat, no (don't think any of my Corps have for decades.)
Have I treated combat injuries, yes. Have I treated trauma away from civilisation, yes. Have I treated known BBV cases, yes. Have I treated trauma with less than ideal kit in less than normal environments, yes.

As frequently pointed out that risk is minimal, especially compared to the risks from unknown BBV carriers.

And even then the main risk is to those carrying out EPP, exposure prone procedures.

This thread is about joining with HIV in army, so you look at the worse scenarios and see if it would work there.
Its quite obvious a lot of things can work in the UK when there is no danger and the ability to call in help.

 

[Ho2331]

This thread is specifically about the risks that an HIV UU poses. Not willy waving about who was exactly how where and when. Have I been in direct combat, no (don't think any of my Corps have for decades.)
Have I treated combat injuries, yes. Have I treated trauma away from civilisation, yes. Have I treated known BBV cases, yes. Have I treated trauma with less than ideal kit in less than normal environments, yes.

As frequently pointed out that risk is minimal, especially compared to the risks from unknown BBV carriers.

And even then the main risk is to those carrying out EPP, exposure prone procedures.

I think that @stacker1 is trying to make the same point as what I've said.
It's fine for you - as someone who has dealt with casualties who had blood borne diseases but you are trained somewhat a lot more than a typical 18 year old squaddie who may be under contact for the very first time.
Yes, I accept the fact that such a lad is probably more likely to contract a diesease from someone who they know nothing about, and aren't aware of their medical history. But as I tried to explain the other day, it was precisely knowing the medical history of the prisoner that I had to deal with at the time that added extra pressure to a situation that was really bad.
Now add into that sort of thing, being young, and under fire for example.
The stress factor would be multiplied by a huge number.

 

[fraudstar]

I think that @stacker1 is trying to make the same point as what I've said.
It's fine for you - as someone who has dealt with casualties who had blood borne diseases but you are trained somewhat a lot more than a typical 18 year old squaddie who may be under contact for the very first time.
Yes, I accept the fact that such a lad is probably more likely to contract a diesease from someone who they know nothing about, and aren't aware of their medical history. But as I tried to explain the other day, it was precisely knowing the medical history of the prisoner that I had to deal with at the time that added extra pressure to a situation that was really bad.
Now add into that sort of thing, being young, and under fire for example.
The stress factor would be multiplied by a huge number.

Why do you think soldiers are not primarily taught to deal with casualties as though they had a BBV as a matter of course?

 

[Ho2331]

Why do you think soldiers are not primarily taught to deal with casualties as though they had a BBV as a matter of course?

I imagine that they are nowadays. Pretty standard training I'd guess. And like I said; it was the fact that I knew of a prisoner's medical condition that affected me when I was treating him.
I was terrified that some how I'd do something and end up getting something nasty.
Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Ho2331]

@enpointe why the dumb for my post?

 

[Fang_Farrier]

I think that @stacker1 is trying to make the same point as what I've said.
It's fine for you - as someone who has dealt with casualties who had blood borne diseases but you are trained somewhat a lot more than a typical 18 year old squaddie who may be under contact for the very first time.
Yes, I accept the fact that such a lad is probably more likely to contract a diesease from someone who they know nothing about, and aren't aware of their medical history. But as I tried to explain the other day, it was precisely knowing the medical history of the prisoner that I had to deal with at the time that added extra pressure to a situation that was really bad.
Now add into that sort of thing, being young, and under fire for example.
The stress factor would be multiplied by a huge number.

I appreciate that, I am old enough to remember how HIV was presented in the 80s and the stigma associated with it.

It has taken a lot of years even for the health profession to become a lot more relaxed about dealing with those who are HIV +, and that was before UU became a common thing.

There then has to be a balance between who is at risk, the individual themselves or those around them.

It is going to vary dramatically depending upon situation.
A short sharp European conflict such as was envisioned in the Cold war era would not have been problematic due to a relatively short time in the field in a temperate environment.
Set that against the more challenging circumstances of Iraq and Afghanistan it is a different matter for those who operated in patrol bases, but not insurmountable.

We then have to remember that we have not yet seen JSP950 setting out exactly what HIV UU will be allowed to do.

 

[Portree Kid]

We then have to remember that we have not yet seen JSP950 setting out exactly what HIV UU will be allowed to do.

Why would you recruit people who's medication is going to cost upwards of £5k a year ?

I can see this being very niche and specialised, with very few and limited positions.

Which begs the question '' Why announce it as a recruitment policy ''

 

[Fang_Farrier]

Why would you recruit people who's medication is going to cost upwards of £5k a year ?

I can see this being very niche and specialised, with very few and limited positions.

Which begs the question '' Why announce it as a recruitment policy ''

Either the MOD pay for that medication or the NHS does.
Either way it's funded by the taxpayer.

 

[enpointe]

@enpointe why the dumb for my post?

because you are absurd, wrong in law and the arguments do not stand up to even the most cursoryry legal examination

much the same as the very same arguments used by Ann 'Bitty' Sinnott of the 'Authentic Equality Alliance' and the ' LGB Alliance ' when she got her arse handed to to her on a plate in court - which led to Ms Sinnott ( a heterosexual by all reports, with a paraphilia around lactation) being removed from the trustees of the LGB alliance , the AEA is Sinnott;s own Grift )

Authentic Equity Alliance C.I.C., R (On the Application Of) v Commission for Equality And Human Rights [2021] EWHC 1623 (Admin) (06 May 2021)

 

[Ho2331]

because you are absurd, wrong in law and the arguments do not stand up to even the most cursoryry legal examination

much the same as the very same arguments used by Ann 'Bitty' Sinnott of the 'Authentic Equality Alliance' and the ' LGB Alliance ' when she got her arse handed to to her on a plate in court - which led to Ms Sinnott ( a heterosexual by all reports, with a paraphilia around lactation) being removed from the trustees of the LGB alliance , the AEA is Sinnott;s own Grift )

Authentic Equity Alliance C.I.C., R (On the Application Of) v Commission for Equality And Human Rights [2021] EWHC 1623 (Admin) (06 May 2021)

Let me get this straight. You gave me a 'dumb' for admitting in my post how I reacted to a given situation. And in response you post this load of old guff... ummm.
Cheers dits.

 

[tearsbeforebedtime]

When did this come in (asthma)?
I had asthma from age 3 until shortly after I left home at 19 when it stopped.
2 years later I walked into the DERR's recruiting office and one of the questions they aske was ,'have you had an asthmatic attack in the last 6 months?'. Answer was no and fine since then.
Apparently the experts have decided nervous asthma doesn't exist, it does, I had it and grew out of it when I left home.

Have you had a prescription for an inhaler in the last three years? Yes? Unfit. You'll note, no attack, just a prescription.