MOD running out of cash: Carriers delayed

#1
The Royal Navy will have to wait up to two years longer for its £4bn aircraft carriers under cost-cutting plans being finalised by John Hutton, defence secretary.

The decision to push back one of the government’s sacrosanct defence equipment programmes represents a sharp reversal. Ministers have always insisted the two ships would be in service by 2014 and 2016.

Mr Hutton’s willingness to delay such an important programme underlines the severity of the cash crisis facing the MoD. He has expressed determination to make the department “live within its means” while prioritising support for frontline troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He is expected to stress that investment will not stop and there will be no impact on jobs. The delay, intended to spread costs, will also help synchronise the project with the expected delivery in 2017 of the F-35 Lightning II or Joint Strike Fighter, the aircraft being built to fly from the ships.

Industry executives think the earlier in-service dates unrealistic given the contract for the programme was signed this year.

The results of a review of the equipment programme are expected early next week. No major programmes will be cancelled but most will face some delay. The moves will not be enough to allow the MoD to balance its budget for 2009.

Future Lynx, the £1bn helicopters programme, is safe although the final number ordered will be cut marginally. AgustaWestland, the defence contractor, will be awarded an additional contract to upgrade existing Lynx helicopters for use in Afghanistan.

A £16bn programme to build armoured vehicles for the army will be revamped. The MoD is expected to prioritise investment in the Scout reconnaissance vehicle rather than the Fres utility vehicle, in a blow to General Dynamics, the US contractor that this year won a provisional contract for the design.

...

On Thursday night the MoD said it hoped to make an announcement “in due course”.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bb1b9392-c252-11dd-a350-000077b07658.html
 
#2
No? Really?

Comes as a massive shock this piece of news. :roll:

Sad thing is, I can't see the budget getting easier to balance in the next few years either.

Expect the date to go to the right again in due course.
 
#4
The fact that its being delayed has as much to do with the Govt, mod and the treasury spending two years dithering on actualy getting the carrier project through main gate. They are already two years behind scheadule no matter how much it costs.
 
#5
Hmmm, not sure about being synchronised with JSF. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that binned. I can also see FRES being kicked into the long grass.

FSC is also likely to be delayed.
 
#6
arfah said:
They'll be selling the T45's to Chile next !
And that isn't even remotely funny.
This country has been sold down the river by Blair and Brown.
I suppose we can expect a deal for the French and Germans to defend the coast of the UK during the little gap that the Navy will have to suffer between Brown selling off half their ships and some new ones actually being built.
 
#7
Toasted_Giant said:
Hmmm, not sure about being synchronised with JSF. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that binned. I can also see FRES being kicked into the long grass.

FSC is also likely to be delayed.
Don't forget FIST - what's the betting that will become no more than regularisation of most of the UORs currently in service ?
 
#8
jagman said:
arfah said:
They'll be selling the T45's to Chile next !
And that isn't even remotely funny.
This country has been sold down the river by Blair and Brown.
I suppose we can expect a deal for the French and Germans to defend the coast of the UK during the little gap that the Navy will have to suffer between Brown selling off half their ships and some new ones actually being built.
I (for once) wasn't trying to be funny !
The T45's we were to receive was 12, then 8 and now 6. The next thing to do is sell 3 of them to Chile ! Same for the new Hunter/Killer subs and the MARS project to be put in the shredder ! The future RN will be the global experts in fishery protection and minesweeping though !

I cannot wait for the next general election. Even though all parties are fcukwits, we need a change !
 
#9
PassingBells said:
A £16bn programme to build armoured vehicles for the army will be revamped. The MoD is expected to prioritise investment in the Scout reconnaissance vehicle rather than the Fres utility vehicle, in a blow to General Dynamics, the US contractor that this year won a provisional contract for the design.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bb1b9392-c252-11dd-a350-000077b07658.html
Depressingly I think this is going to happen, but the problem is not just for GD but for all the companies involved in the UV/SV/OUVS projects...if they start slipping much more then the companies are going to cut staff and reduce the capability in the UK. Already the 3 companies involved in the FRES UV bidding have been "on hold" for over a year longer than expected, how much longer before the companies refuse to plough more of thier own money into keeping a capability available and ready to go when the 'time is right'.

As I am part of this "capability" (engineering not project management I stress) then I am seeing the effects first hand, if these big projects get delayed much further then the capability to provide these type of vehicles will go the same way that our nucleur design and explosives production capability has gone...i.e. none left.

S_R

Edited to add - This was the main thrust of the Defence Committee evidence given on the 18th Nov. 2008 by senior industry members.
 
#10
arfah said:
jagman said:
arfah said:
They'll be selling the T45's to Chile next !
And that isn't even remotely funny.
This country has been sold down the river by Blair and Brown.
I suppose we can expect a deal for the French and Germans to defend the coast of the UK during the little gap that the Navy will have to suffer between Brown selling off half their ships and some new ones actually being built.
I (for once) wasn't trying to be funny !
The T45's we were to receive was 12, then 8 and now 6. The next thing to do is sell 3 of them to Chile ! Same for the new Hunter/Killer subs and the MARS project to be put in the shredder ! The future RN will be the global experts in fishery protection and minesweeping though !

I cannot wait for the next general election. Even though all parties are fcukwits, we need a change !
Are you kidding? Thats being kicked in the teeth as well.
 
#11
instinct said:
arfah said:
jagman said:
arfah said:
They'll be selling the T45's to Chile next !
And that isn't even remotely funny.
This country has been sold down the river by Blair and Brown.
I suppose we can expect a deal for the French and Germans to defend the coast of the UK during the little gap that the Navy will have to suffer between Brown selling off half their ships and some new ones actually being built.
I (for once) wasn't trying to be funny !
The T45's we were to receive was 12, then 8 and now 6. The next thing to do is sell 3 of them to Chile ! Same for the new Hunter/Killer subs and the MARS project to be put in the shredder ! The future RN will be the global experts in fishery protection and minesweeping though !

I cannot wait for the next general election. Even though all parties are fcukwits, we need a change !
Are you kidding? Thats being kicked in the teeth as well.
It appears I'm not as well informed as some !
 
#13
Delays only until after next election to avoid all those terrible headlines about Scottish job losses and then whoever wins whoops we cannot afford it, cannot support two carriers with with is left of our navy nor have the dosh to buy enough modern things to fly off them.

Cue vast compensation payouts under the contracts, Public Accounts C'tee lambasting huge waste of public money, etc etc etc and general cries of "How can this be??" :roll:
 
#14
The_Career_Civvie said:
We were going to end up with HMS Queen Elizabeth with a handful of GR9's on the deck.
You're feeling optimistic this morning.

If the CVFs ever get built, they might have a handful of SuperLynxs on the deck, perhaps - would be more realistic.
 
#15
The take from a friend who works in one of the main contractors for this project and liases alot with the carrier alliance is this:

The carrier wont be canceled. The government is looking to spend its way out of the recession. A large heavy engineering project that is almost completly UK-centered and will keep thousands of highly skilled people in work all across the country (not just broons constituancy) will not be canceled.

The reason the Project is being delayed two years is as i stated above. The Project started two years late so will finish two years late. Or later as we all know how Procurment programs like to stay on time.

As to the future of the carrier when its built god only knows. Maybe the same fate of the carriers the Russians built. :cry:
 
#17
instinct said:
The take from a friend who works in one of the main contractors for this project and liases alot with the carrier alliance is this:

The carrier wont be canceled. The government is looking to spend its way out of the recession. A large heavy engineering project that is almost completly UK-centered and will keep thousands of highly skilled people in work all across the country (not just broons constituancy) will not be canceled.

The reason the Project is being delayed two years is as i stated above. The Project started two years late so will finish two years late. Or later as we all know how Procurment programs like to stay on time.

As to the future of the carrier when its built god only knows. Maybe the same fate of the carriers the Russians built. :cry:
That's a reassuring message.

UK Plc goes bankrupt, the working class gets taxed to the bone, but defence contractors smile with glee as they launch a pair of very large white elephants.
 
#18
instinct said:
The take from a friend who works in one of the main contractors for this project and liases alot with the carrier alliance is this:

The carrier wont be canceled. The government is looking to spend its way out of the recession. A large heavy engineering project that is almost completly UK-centered and will keep thousands of highly skilled people in work all across the country (not just broons constituancy) will not be canceled.

The reason the Project is being delayed two years is as i stated above. The Project started two years late so will finish two years late. Or later as we all know how Procurment programs like to stay on time.

As to the future of the carrier when its built god only knows. Maybe the same fate of the carriers the Russians built. :cry:

I wish that was true, unfortunately the UK seems to always have to give a certain percentage of the work to others in the EU, and you also have to add the fact that we've sold off most of the expertise and have to get bits done in France and the US.
 
#20
whitecity said:
instinct said:
The take from a friend who works in one of the main contractors for this project and liases alot with the carrier alliance is this:

The carrier wont be canceled. The government is looking to spend its way out of the recession. A large heavy engineering project that is almost completly UK-centered and will keep thousands of highly skilled people in work all across the country (not just broons constituancy) will not be canceled.

The reason the Project is being delayed two years is as i stated above. The Project started two years late so will finish two years late. Or later as we all know how Procurment programs like to stay on time.

As to the future of the carrier when its built god only knows. Maybe the same fate of the carriers the Russians built. :cry:
That's a reassuring message.

UK Plc goes bankrupt, the working class gets taxed to the bone, but defence contractors smile with glee as they launch a pair of very large white elephants.
I think you'll find that a great many 'working class' people depend on work like this - it's not all executive and computer design boffs you know.

Back on thread - 2014 was never a realistic in-service date for a project of this size and complexity. 2016 has been the working assumption for those in the real world for several years now. The contract for the first 3 F-35C's for testing by the RAF/RN is due in February.

They also don't have much choice in the matter in terms of the workforce -the construction phase of the Type 45 program is winding down:

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/Bow-section-starts-journey-to.4744478.jp

and I can't honestly think that the shipbuilders agreed to sign a contract with the MoD that agreed that the carriers could be be shifted in timeframe if he MoD felt like it. Short of something massive, still expect first steel to be cut early next year.
 

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