Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by snapper, Apr 13, 2007.
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MoD plotted story sale while hostages were still in cells Is this true? Discuss....
We should be look forward to a resignation speech on Monday then.
Oh hang on - Labour don't do that honourable stuff.
Expect their favourite word - "sorry" - and bugger all else.
What does Labour not understand about taking responsiblity for one's actions? Saying sorry is the action one expects from a child caught out having been naughty. It is not what I expect from those who aspire to the grandiose title of Statesman.
Perhaps we, those who have served, really do have alien sense of correctness to the rest of society these days. We certainly seem to be at complete odds with what is acceptable conduct in the opinion of politicians
MY my, a few sorries from a number of choice arrseholers might be on the cards too then.... mother, mother, where's your recipy for humble pie, mother!
Turneygate or what!
I think this isn't too far off the truth.
A few years ago, the single services lost their PR (or "corporate comms") responsibilities. These were centralised under MoD.
Burying bad news is very much within the tradition of the current government. Why not bury the bad news of the "kidnap" with plenty "capture-and-tell" type revelationss?
There will have been - and still is - a media strategy for this debacle, with direction from No 10 (deniability built in).
That this bloody ridiculous charade could now have been planned all along makes it that much more laughable.
But then again.........I s'pose fcuk ups of such monumental proportions don't just happen and would probably need detailed planning.
The RN would not have been allowed to make the decision to 'sell' these stories. FLEET or CNS' staff may have made a submission but they don't have the authority to make the executive decision. That rests in MOD Centre. The MOD is a joint HQ as well as a Dept of State so the decision was made jointly and with the knowledge of our political masters.
A couple of months back I was approached by BBC Oxford to be interviewed and the decision was referred through FLEET to the MOD. In short, the MOD controls even routine communications with the Press, let alone something as explosive as the stories of the 15 Iranian hostages.
For the S of S and Bliar to claim that 'it's the Navy's fault' is thus completely false. It was their decision and they should take responsibility for it. What are the chances that will happen? I despise them for their failure to act with honour.
This stinks more the longer it goes on and the more layers that get peeled away.
The arse covering that is going on here is beyond contempt. Faye Turney and Arthur Batchelor are last weeks news. It must be clear to every observer that they have been placed (on the advice of those entrusted with their' handling and care after their safe return) in an impossible position.
Faye and Arthur' quotes have been ripped to shreds by informed opinion in the media and elsewhere. I presume Faye and Arthur's trust in those that met them off those helicoptors was absolute - so who has let them down?
I believe that the release by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of the hostages was a media coup against Tony Blair's government. The government then sent out a deadly earnest statement that the true story had to be told. The disparity between the Iranian pictures and the hostages' experience was projected as immense by every government minister and MP that jumped on this good news story.
The announcement that the former hostages were to be allowed to sell their stories, as "the truth will get out one way or another" probably set a lot of peoples' minds racing. The conclusion that the hostages had been paraded in suits for public spectacle and propagnda purposes, by an unfriendly foreign government, whilst being tortured, sexually abused and suffering abuses of the Geneva Convention on Human Rights behind the scenes could be easily reached from what the MOD did not say about their' captivity.
So, by allowing the former hostages to tell their' own story, we learn first hand from Faye and Arthur that actually they weren't treated that badly. Okay, the Iranians used a few standard tricks of the trade, which I don't condone, but are addressed through the military CAC courses that have been conducted over the last fifteen years.
The outcry from those of us who could see the scale of damage that this would do, were amazed at the former hostages' being allowed to talk to the media in this way - irrespective of who had actually taken the decision. The decision is then reversed following publication, the realisation that nothing really bad happened to them and that they are all in one piece.
The outcry then rightly turns towards who has allowed / advised Faye and Arthur to talk to the press - and at this moment everybody steps back.
I would like Faye Turney to do another two interviews:
1. This weekend, detailing all of the people who she met and their words to her in relation to selling her story and looking after her welfare.
2. Six months time, detailing her time since being a hostage and her experience of being a minor celebrity at the same time as being a serving member of the Armed Forces.
I suspect these two sailors would rather undo the interviews and return below decks.
Â£100K minus tax is not a lot if you throw away your career. The older and more senior appeared to know better, but this is not surprising. The pension value of a Lieutenant RN equivalent (Capt/Flt Lt other services) is the best part of Â£250K, if retiring after 16 years service or at 38 years old.
They have been sold down the river, with the connivance of Downing Street.
Ministry Of Denial - Ministry Of Deception - Ministry Of Deceit
It's quite clear from what's going on that the inept Bag of sh1te MOD, Mr Brown and ultimately his boss the Right Honourable Member for Texas West Mr Blair are responsible for the shame that is being heaped on the Senior Service and Royal Marines.
Des Brown has been on the bus off the bus with his comments and backtracking about who did what. In one incredible statement he admits he's at fault but blames the Navy at the same time. It was also widely reported today that the Press Complaints Commission actually consulted with the MOD and attempted to Ring Fence the families involved to keep away the leeches from the gutter press, and the MOD said NO!
God knows what the half arsed thinking was in allowing permission for those deck monkeys and booty's to sell there stories, I can't imagine or even envisage for a single moment what, if any propaganda value could be gathered from this Non Story. They were released, there was a statement, and er that was, or should have been it.
But no, Tugboat Turney gets to be on ITV and in the Sun discussing her 'harrowing' ordeal. Why, because they let her.
I'm not defending her, or the other half wit who lost his 'kin, IPOD'. But it takes more than a leading seaman [and lets face it, Bloke Or Bird ?] to organise a global press release, and a TV deal. There's a significant chain of command that allowed all of this to happen.
Granted, someone, an adult possibly, should have had the comment sense to whisk the 'hostages' of to somewhere out of the way of the press, issued a common release and that be the end of it. But Her boss and his boss and his boss all the way to the top thought it would be great if they sold there stories. The MOD were fully aware of what was going on and let it happen.
There has been a massive backlash in the press and on this web-site and it's all been directed in the wrong places. It was a news worthy event and it got the attention of the world, but you had to wonder when you saw them on TV smoking and laughing and joking what was really going on. Couldn't see any bruises though, so all a bit iffy looking. Then there she is, LARGE as life smoking Iranian fags and looking gormless. Yes she's married with a Kiddie at home, yes I feel sorry for her, and yes it's clear that there is some kind of pressure for her to betray her country and write those letters. And while all this is going on, on our TV the MOD is cutting deals in the background.
But within minutes of her being back in the UK she's a heroine, and Blah blah blah. And the country is then subjected to 30 minutes of NON television of her 'experience' . It's shameful and embarrassing that she was allowed anywhere near anything that resembled a media outlet, the same with the other Monkey, you know, the 20 year old baby who cried him self to sleep and got the fat troll go give him a hug.
Then were all subjected to this backlash where the 2 matelots who sold there story are evil and should leave the service etc. that's just not fair. Who here in the same position having been 'captured' and 'paraded' on TV by some Middle Eastern Nutters as soon as there repatriated are then TOLD, Yea it's OK to sell your story, would go for it? Wouldn't you rub your chin and think twice ??
All the anger and hatred has been directed toward a couple of young, gormless, inexperienced individuals who were only there by accident of the shift pattern.
All the armchair generals saying they should have fought back and opened fire. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but 15 men and women went out, and 15 Men and Women came back and there are no Wife's, Girlfriends, Husbands, Mothers, Fathers and Siblings having to bury there dead. We should be thankful for that.
Then we are inundated by Col this and General that saying it's disgraceful and reprehensible and a whatever for them to be selling there story and cashing in. Col Bob Stewart, famous for shagging his interpreter, firing his pistol in the air and shouting a lot. I'm pretty sure he doesn't comment for free, and he makes a lot of money on the lecture circuit, can't that bloke see the irony? If Op Grapple 1 hadn't been televised, he would have just got divorced and retired into obscurity, he wouldn't be a so called ex-spurt endlessly paraded on TV anytime there's no news and we all need to here a regurgitated sound bite.
Same with the rest of them, they jump at the chance to slag them off and the government. And they get PAID for it.
We live in a country that, since Labour got in 97 has progressively gone down the toilet. Blair is so far up Bush's Ar*e that a double episode of Thunderbirds couldn't rescue him. We have become a nation obsessed with celebrity, a sound bite culture. A nation that is being dismantled from within by the very government that was voted in to to keep the 'Great' in Great Britain. A country obsessed with X Factor, Pop Idol, and Big Brother and crap like that. A country where are definition of Hero is somewhat different to that of when we were kids and when are parents grew up.
Nowadays a hero is some half wit nobody off Big Brother, or a footballer, or a footballers emaciated wife, or some karoke contestent on X Factor or some nobody who shagged a somebody etc etc etc.
There is little of no perspective - there has been lots of comparison to Nelson and the Great Navy and Marines of old. But we live in different times, were fighting wars that nobody wants, but because we involved in them, we have to see them through. There are acts and deeds of heroism every day by members of all the services, and I'm sure. In fact I 'kin know that each and every single one is worthy of at least 1 line in the Sun. But the media are scum, they a business's and they want to sell to sell papers, and they sell papers and they make a profit. And the more that everyone goes on about it, the more papers they sell. The perspective being 4 young people killed whilst there being released in Tailored suits and goodie bags. I was watching a programme the other night 'Once A Soldier' about the Chelsea Pensioners. there was an old boy on there who was going in who was a Japaneese Priosoner Of War, and he was laughing and joking telling one story about his time in the camp when he was being punished, he had to hold a heavy rock above his head, if he dropped it he would be shot. He was in his 80's, that's a Bloody hero.
I don't see the Sun or ITV chipping in to purchase Body Amour for our troops, or ploughing back some of that Profit to the British Legion or respective benevolent funds. Although I hear everyone else telling those that got money for selling there stories to do that.
Who's to blame for the aftermath of this affair, There's a Captain of the Cornwall who would appear to still be in job, after loosing 15 personnel, 2 Ribs, Gats/Radios/Crypto and causing a massive embarrassment to the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and the Armed Forces as a whole.
There's a couple of Sea Lords and Rear Admirals and Commanders of respective units who allowed press conferences to take place and allowed the media into there establishments.
And there is the career buearacrat at the MOD who said that it was all ok, and when it backfired, became the slimy bottom feeding politician we are all accustomed too by blaming everyone else but himself. In the services words and acts, Courage, honour, loyalty, Camaraderie, they mean something, men and women doing a sh1tty job every day for crap pay and no thanks and the MOD, ultimately the MOD and Des's Boss, Tony. THEY are the ones who have shamed our service's not the service's themselves.
And the press. In there scramble to get the story they, with the MOD have undermined the NAVY and the Marines, and by default the Army and RAF.
Were they wrong to sell there stories - NO not really they were told they could from all the way up on high.
Were those that allowed the stories to be sold in the wrong - abso - f**king-lutley.
Will those who allowed this to happen be disciplined or be forced to resign - NO probably not
Will those who sold there stories have inadvertently sh1t canned there careers, Quite possibly
Was it worth it - My Arse !!!
During their captivity the 'fifteen' were portrayed in the press as semi heroes who unfortunately had run in to an ambush. It was apparent from their body language during the Iranian television interviews that they had been placed under some form of duress - which was to be expected. It was equally obvious that the prime targets for the interrogator's 'dirty tricks' would be the youngest and the female from the group as apparently being the most vulnerable.
Now, whether or not the group should have resisted capture at all costs, and whether or not the captain of their parent ship should have blown the Iranian vessels out of the water in their defence are two questions which a Board of Enquiry should address, as is the question as to whether permission should have been given for the paid interviews on their return.
The result, as we are aware, was that these two were somehow the only ones to accept these offers - through bad advice?- and in consequence, Faye in particular has been subjected to quite scurrilous personal attacks by some columnists in the press probably annoyed because the'Sun' had got there first.
This is an incident which should never have happened and was badly handled from start to finish both by the Service chiefs and by the politicians, who have left junior ratings to bear the brunt of it all.
Well Done, the powers that be!
shit rolls down hill
most of the media who are screaming for there heads are the ones who lost the bidding war so they can feck off as can bob and the military experts
MOD fecked this one up most adults would think the average tom shouldn't be exposed to the media without a tight leash
At least the story as purported doesn't rely on single sources.
"Insiders Said" Insiders could just as easily be Daily Hate reporters.
That anyone trusts this absolute rag to say anything with any truth in it at all is just as unbelievable as the story. They are getting better though in that they have spirited up two anonymous sources - thing is was it from Whitehall or a whisky bottle
I agree totally twisted laces and well put !
Propaganda/spin is normal, what I object to is not the attempt to make the Iranians look bad for their actions but the clumsy way in which it was done. As usual we look amateurish on the world stage.
I think you will find that they are now digging for dirt on the 2 who blew them out.
Separate names with a comma.