MoD may write off millions in JPA expenses

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Mr_Bridger, Nov 16, 2009.

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  1. What's a quarter of a billion eh?

    UK MoD may write off 'tens of millions of pounds' due to inefficiencies in expenses

    The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) may need to write off tens of millions of pounds due to inefficiencies in its expenses system, the UK House of Commons defence committee has heard.

    The committee also heard the MoD deny that its focus on efficiency savings is the main cause of failures relating to its equipment procurement processes.

    Responding to questions from committee members at an open hearing on 10 November, Sir Bill Jeffrey, the permanent under-secretary for the MoD, said the department may need to write off a large proportion of expenses errors worth GBP268 million (USD448 million) gross, identified by a National Audit Office (NAO) report published in July.

    The NAO's review of the MoD's 2008-09 report of accounts found that 14.7 per cent of transactions carried out using the MoD's Joint Personnel Administration (JPA) expenses system were in error. (The JPA handles specialist pay, allowances and expenses for MoD personnel.)

    When asked what proportion of the GBP268 million may eventually need to be written off, Terrence Jagger, the MoD's director of financial management, said: "At an educated guess – I'd say considerably less than half of it."

    "GBP268 million is the NAO's estimate of gross error," he added. "Those errors arise from situations where we can't provide satisfactory evidence ... . It may well prove that GBP268 million is an over estimate."
  2. How much money did we lose when we had clerks doing all this?
  3. the_boy_syrup

    the_boy_syrup LE Book Reviewer

    What about the people who have recieved police cautions and been bust or sacked by the MOD ?

    Apology and Compo?
  4. Again what they really mean is, now the lads have a way of claiming what they are fully entitled to and it is costing them an arm and a leg giving it to them rather than relying on the clerks telling everybody to sod off.
  5. You can claim what you are entitled to as always before - if the clerks told you to sod off then you were at fault for not 'educating' them, I have dropped a few in my time for 'an unhelpful attitude' both sides of the counter. Problem with JPA is that noone now knows WHAT they are entitled to because there is noone there to advise them or HOW to claim it so they are scared to claim and the system is not easy to use. JPA replaced clerks because 'if you can use a mobile phone you can use JPA' so there is no problem because the Army do not want accept one exists. VERY VERY FEW PEOPLE GET COURT-MARTIALLED BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT TRAINED TO USE THIS, er, TOOL.
  6. msr

    msr LE

    The real issue here is the byzantine collection of pay and allowances which no-one fully understands. The MOD should have stripped them out and massively simplified the whole process.

    P.S. Can anyone tell me how I claim for a hotel in Bulgaria, with a receipt in Euros, to be paid in pounds?
  7. One of my probs too. Receipts in Stirling, paid in to in pounds and no actual easily accesable record as to what what teh FFR rate was that week.
  8. JPA is well after my time but I suspect you are right and it has been overcomplicated with regards to claims.
    CS pay became a 'bugger's muddle' for the same reason. Too many different allowances with grey areas.
    It all needs to be simplified but I suppose that would mean less jobsworth and therefore will not happen.
  9. Oh my aching sides

    Old way

    Pte Sprog - Scuse me Cpl Shiny I have been away all day and I have been told I am entitled to xyz

    Cpl Shiny - Did you fill in AF123456789 in quadruplicate 5 days in advance and get it signed by the Master chef, QM, & CDS

    Pte Sprog – No

    Cpl – Well F*ck off out of my site you little irratent

    New Way

    Pte Sprog - goes away from military site for over 5 hours, buys food & drink keeps receipts of up tp approx £27.00

    Pte Sprog – Gets back to camp follows the steps that are relatively hard the first time, however, once shown gets easier and claims his entitlement back on JPA

    Pte Sprog now claims his entitlement every single time

    MOD who didn’t foresee this up-shoot in claims gets embarrassed :D :D
  10. CF - Ask your RAOWO/RAO, they have records as to what the FFR is/was. Also, I usually pay for as much as you can by credit/debit card, get your statement (online banking is great!) and claim that amount as that is what it costs you (including banking charges and fees). For receipts in Euro etc, get the FFR then calculate yourself and claim in sterling. Put your 'working out' in the text box and bob should be your mothers brother!.

  11. What rank are you ?

    If it was going wrong before & Pte Sprog was one of mine then you had a part to play in this scenario – where were you ? Speak to the SPS guys & if they were not producing the goods then be Cpl Complaint or Sgt Shout. Most clerks want to do a good job – easier for everyone. If you are frustrated and blocked then push it up your Regtl CoC so the SPS are educated (or you are informed about the reasons ‘why not’).

    The £27 a day is relatively new (used to be only a fiver in UK and double that overseas). There is a £30 million spike in allowances and that is not down to increased DRSA claims (so what is it ?)


    Despite the problems with JPA if you have a good, pro-active FSA, RAWO and RAO they SHOULD be able to sort out most issues for everyone – JPA is often the obstacle for them in doing it rather than the quick-fix ‘tool’ they were promised. Or require.
  12. Why could we not have figured out, before this system was introduced, that the MoD is helpless when it comes to 20th century IT?

    That is not mistake, 20th Cent is what I meant. Name one IT system that has worked as advertised.
  13. What does that matter what rank I am, however, I have been around long enough to lament the demise of the All Arms Clerk and the RAPC

    Please climb down of your high horse before you fall off and hurt yourself. Isn’t wonderful that in the beautiful world of cyber space everyone is perfect and we all do the very best job we can.

    Some clerks are very very good and some the complete opposite (a bit like every other trade group in the army). If you hadn’t noticed it’s a busy old world and sometimes the boys just accept getting f*cked off, however, when they make their CofC aware, things generally get done.

    Have you ever been sort of in the background in a department (whether that be the clerks office, the QM’s, or the MT) when a young lad is getting f*cked around by some jumped up f*cker, yet as soon as a senior/officer asks a question the attitude changes completely.

    Well the real world is like that (and yes before you ask I do intervene on behalf of the young lad when I see it)

    With regard to the spike, I have suggested one reason, that blokes are finding it easier to claim their entitlements. You refute this yet do not offer an alternative
  14. I ain't joking here - what is the £27 about? Honestly not a ears have pricked up and my wallet is tingling. I know (or knew) about the £5 thingy but I'm interested to know what has changed - I haven't seen anything advertised. Cheers.
  15. Day Subsistence (Para Phrased Below)

    DS is the re-imbursement of actual receipted costs, up to a DS limit for expenditure necessarily incurred for food and drink during the day for periods of over 5 hours’ absence from the permanent or temporary assignment station, when neither a Core Meal in a PAYD Unit or an Entitled Casual Meal in a non-PAYD Unit can be purchased.

    Authority for claims for subsistence within 5 miles of the assignment station, temporary assignment station or home location are normally inappropriate unless the CO, or appropriate delegated officer, is content that the Service person’s duties make it impracticable for them to return to their duty station/home.

    DS reimburses breakfast and/or lunch and/or dinner costs, tax and gratuities/service charges, except where NS is also being claimed for the same temporary duty, in which case breakfast costs are contained within NS, and not DS

    Service personnel who receive light refreshments, breakfast, lunch or dinner in the working environment or any form of Official Entertainment must not claim DS for the food and drink provided under these circumstances at public expense

    Currently about £27.00 a day reciepted (as stated above). It can be claimed with Night Subsistence (NS) and aggregated, however check JSP 752 for the complete regulation. Lots of other good stuff in there as well :wink:

    Oh and not to be confused with Missed Meal Payments (MMP) or Meals Out Allowance (MOA)