MoD failed to act over Snatch safety alert

#2
I think the snatch issue is overrated. Blokes were getting killed by sizeable EFP's that would have ripped holes in just about anything.

Manpower was the main reason we struggled so much in Basra. We couldn't secure routes, dominate the ground, or do anything except defend our own camps - and we struggled to do that towards the end. The OSB, BP and SAAH got ****ing hammered at various stages.
 
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#3
Delta Dog - you are not wrong, SNATCH was not the issue. If you were a 1 RIFLES Delta Dog you got hammered on T9 and it got even worse on TELIC 10 cos the Brigade did not have enough people!

WR got knocked out loads and we struggled to get in and out of BP and OSB - luckily SAAH closed down before then.
 
#4
I read something earlier today saying that its horrid that we still use snatch in afghanistan. However I dont think I ever saw one outside of Bastion, damn those press people not getting the bigger picture.
 
#5
Yet, will anyone ever be brought to account for this? No, will they bollocks. If this were due to an industrial accident, someone would face culperable manslaughter charges. But because its the Military and we are expected to get killed because of the negligence or lack of ****ing forethought by some fat **** in Whitehall or Westminister, its ok and it'll just get forgotten about. All the while, the people responsible just sit back getting fatter off the tax payer, occasionally vomiting a piece of shit biography every now and again
 
#6
we were riding around Baghdad and surviving IED strikes on TELIC4 in SNATCH while the US Army HMMWV's were getting whacked and disintegrating left right and centre.

in the early days the Yanks thought our SNATCH was an excellent bit of kit, and so did we until shaped charges and larger munitions were used that would defeat anything but a proper MRAP.

SNATCH was good in it's day, and not as bad as they made out, but it's been surpassed now and is best kept behind the wire.
 
#7
Errr... "That's the best defensive practice we had at the time." ....... A classic MOD ace card that appears to work every time in a court of law.
 
#8
I read something earlier today saying that its horrid that we still use snatch in afghanistan. However I dont think I ever saw one outside of Bastion, damn those press people not getting the bigger picture.
2008 - we were using snatch at Edi....Not sure if they been using them since...
 
#9
Yaaawn...

Snatch Land Rover not impervious to Iranian Anti-Armour IED...just like the countless tanks and IFVs that also got whacked.


Must be a slow news day.
 
#10
I think the problem was more the fact that the MOD never admitted publicly that they were aware that Snatch was not up to the job once shaped charges started being used. If they had done so, and maybe thrown in that Snatch was not alone, that just about every other UK and other national vehicle in theatre were also vulnerable and explained they were doing everything possible to improve it/develope something that would save us, then I think they would have received better press.


The current fleet we use in AFG is standing up really well to the IED threat in theatre but I would be interested exactly how well it would stand up to the kind of devices used on TELIC. Some things you just can't protect against.
 
#11
I recall Snatch arriving at Shaibah and looking wistfully at them as I headed toward the gates in my civvy-hired Discovery - which turned out not to be proof against stones kicked up by a Chinook. Still, it had air con, which was cool.
 
#12
I recall Snatch arriving at Shaibah and looking wistfully at them as I headed toward the gates in my civvy-hired Discovery - which turned out not to be proof against stones kicked up by a Chinook. Still, it had air con, which was cool.
We were looking at them wistfully while heading for the front gate in Wolf 110s with the rear canvas removed and a bit of cam net wrapped round it! (Telic 4)

We all knew Snatch wasn't really good enough but we had sod all else to send in the early days. Whether we should have or not is another question of course - if we were planning on invading and occupying a second country then surely the MOD/Government should have been considering what to do if that occupation went breasts skywards?
 
#13
I think the problem was more the fact that the MOD never admitted publicly that they were aware that Snatch was not up to the job once shaped charges started being used. If they had done so, and maybe thrown in that Snatch was not alone, that just about every other UK and other national vehicle in theatre were also vulnerable and explained they were doing everything possible to improve it/develope something that would save us, then I think they would have received better press.
QUOTE]
You mean when they started using RPG. That uses a shaped charge
 
#14
Yet, will anyone ever be brought to account for this? How and for whatNo, will they bollocks. If this were due to an industrial accident, someone would face culperable manslaughter charges. Waht if they were supplied with the best equipment available in the inventory at the time and it failed to mitigate against an unforseen threat?But because its the Military and we are expected to get killed Don't think this is strictly true is it?because of the negligence or lack of ****ing forethought How buy equipment to deal with unforseen or new threats that may never come to fruitionby some fat **** in Whitehall or Westminister, its ok and it'll just get forgotten about. All the while, the people responsible just sit back getting fatter off the tax payer, occasionally vomiting a piece of shit biography every now and again
So what was the alternative method of transport to be used then that could be procured and trialled in what a 6mth window?

We had nothing and nothing was on the market that was suitable. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and as DeltaDog says even heavy armour was getting destroyed.
 
#15
I was "protected" on Telic 3 from all forms of IED's by a whacking big bit of chicken wire over the windscreen of my 110, that is until I decided I would take the preferrable method of melting in a warrior rather than taking a chance with the MK1 MRAP
 
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#16
By that rationale Papa Golf we should never have let soldiers use them in Northern ireland either. RPGs, Mk 12 and Mk16 mortars all had shaped charge warheads there. Look back at AFV design - trade off firepower, protection, mobility. WR too big and noisy for some jobs so SNATCH was used. Equally, driving down red routes in SNATCH was no fun at all (not much fun in WR).

The MoD did a pretty good job in a very short period of improving our fleet. Hardly a civil servants fault if the Army kept on insisting that FRES was the only answer to any of our problems and thereby leaving us with 432, Saxon and Snatch to choose from.

Once the penny dropped (with senior Army officers) the MoD spent a fortune on upgrading 432 while buying MASTIFF. Could they have bought them earlier? Of course, if the Army said we needed it. But we didn't. The fact is IED technology in Iraq moved from simple to very sophisticated much quicker than we could respond.

Whose fault is that? A generation of people who could not conceive of fighting a well armed insurgency in a city, preferring to concentrate on wet dreams of rapid deployment and pre emptive effects based operations. The same people that saw the Russians beat us to the punch in Kosovo and thuis wanted a super duper system that could do the same if required - forgetting that if the enemy is not defeated by your pre emption you then need something to fight from.
 
#17
We were looking at them wistfully while heading for the front gate in Wolf 110s with the rear canvas removed and a bit of cam net wrapped round it! (Telic 4)

We all knew Snatch wasn't really good enough but we had sod all else to send in the early days. Whether we should have or not is another question of course - if we were planning on invading and occupying a second country then surely the MOD/Government should have been considering what to do if that occupation went breasts skywards?
Having done FP for the hospital at SLB on T3 I can relate to this. The only point that I would add is that the threat was lower than on later tours. I remember hoofing around the city in Discos and Wolfs and feeling comparatively safe, provided you kept moving. The atmosphere seemed to change mid tour when IEDs started to appear in greater numbers.

What annoyed me was seeing Police Mentoring Teams in the Nadi Ali area on H10 still using Snatch, despite the MOD stating clearly that there were no British soldiers on patrol in Snatch.
 
#18
When you consider the war reserve vehicles in Army sheds around the country, Bedford trucks or AFVs or whatever else is stock-piled. It strikes me that MoD could ask several engineering specialist universities to adapt or modify or develop a suitable vehicle, by giving them a selection of vehicles to experiment on. and that would be much cheaper than a contract with one of the big vehicle manufacturers.
surely they could modify a Bedford truck or a Land Rover to be radio remote controlled and drive at the head of a convoy.
 
#19
When you consider the war reserve vehicles in Army sheds around the country, Bedford trucks or AFVs or whatever else is stock-piled. It strikes me that MoD could ask several engineering specialist universities to adapt or modify or develop a suitable vehicle, by giving them a selection of vehicles to experiment on. and that would be much cheaper than a contract with one of the big vehicle manufacturers.
surely they could modify a Bedford truck or a Land Rover to be radio remote controlled and drive at the head of a convoy.
All well and good except they regularly targeted the middle of the convoys to split up the group.
 
#20
By that rationale Papa Golf we should never have let soldiers use them in Northern ireland either. RPGs, Mk 12 and Mk16 mortars all had shaped charge warheads there. Look back at AFV design - trade off firepower, protection, mobility. WR too big and noisy for some jobs so SNATCH was used. Equally, driving down red routes in SNATCH was no fun at all (not much fun in WR).

The MoD did a pretty good job in a very short period of improving our fleet. Hardly a civil servants fault if the Army kept on insisting that FRES was the only answer to any of our problems and thereby leaving us with 432, Saxon and Snatch to choose from.

Once the penny dropped (with senior Army officers) the MoD spent a fortune on upgrading 432 while buying MASTIFF. Could they have bought them earlier? Of course, if the Army said we needed it. But we didn't. The fact is IED technology in Iraq moved from simple to very sophisticated much quicker than we could respond.

Whose fault is that? A generation of people who could not conceive of fighting a well armed insurgency in a city, preferring to concentrate on wet dreams of rapid deployment and pre emptive effects based operations. The same people that saw the Russians beat us to the punch in Kosovo and thuis wanted a super duper system that could do the same if required - forgetting that if the enemy is not defeated by your pre emption you then need something to fight from.
Yes, there was/is a threat in NI of RPG/MK12/MK16, but wasn't the Primary threat from SAF, Blast bombs, fireworks, petrol bombs and brick wielding neds?. The chance of getting hit broadside by an RPG or a EFP IED, was pretty minimal when you compare it to the near 100% chance of getting****ed in Basra.
No, I'm not detracting from the threat we faced in NI, but the need for a much heavier armoured vehicle for use in Iraq was massively more. We moved fast enough to source the kit for Afghanistan in comparison, if the bean counters had moved as fast in Iraq, more people would be home this Christmas
 

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