Misuse of subbies

Discussion in 'OTC and ACF' started by barbarasson, Oct 27, 2005.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. I was speaking to some newYOs recently and I have noticed a worrying trend.

    Given the amount of work now required to get through the TA commissioning process (no longer can it be seen as something 'just to do over the summer') group B subbies in the OTC should be at their highest standard ever. However, just as some subbies leave RMAS (surely at their keenest) it appears that they are not being fully untilised by their OTCs.

    It is understandable that some YOs who are going into their final year should not want to take command of a troop in a group A unit. However, if subbies are put back in the food chain where they would have been if they had stayed as ocdts or JUOs (and getting tasked by SUOs etc), and their talents are not utilised by their units, surely there is a danger of them never getting to Group A units.

    Has anyone else seen this happening in their units?
  2. What would you have them do? I know Cambridge uses them to do things like MTQ2 etc. But what can you do witha unit where every one wants to lead?

    If you gave the Subbies all the command jobs how will any one else get experiance to become Subbies?

    Personaly I think they should be made to earn that extra cash..
  3. the ones I spoke to were being used as babysitters on mtq2 (the occasional map reading lesson), and nothing more. although it is not ideal to have very YOs teaching est and orders, they are the ones who have most recently been thoroughly grilled on it. i agree they should be made to earn their money, but for that they need the opportunity
  4. ULOTC uses its subbies (GYC included) as Athlone Platoon Commanders. And the occasional "odd-job" (i.e. i/c Enemy or something) if there happens to be more than 4 of them floating around at any one time.
  5. But ULOTC has trasitionally taken the creation and use of 2Lts more seriously than elsewhere!
  6. woopert

    woopert LE Moderator

    Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day when ULOTC had cadetships as well as Gp B subbies there were a bit of a plethora of them. Each Athlone Pl was commanded by a subbie (there were 6 Pl on my intake) plus one in each troop. There was also the practice of bursars getting Gp A commissions in their 2nd year and coming back cap-badged and pipped. The CO at the time put a stop to this from happening and refused to let 2Lts come back into the unit once commission ed unless they had at least 1 year to do on their course AND they had a guaranteed place to go to at the end of the year because a significant number of Gp B 2Lts who "badged" ULOTC did a year after RMAS and then binned the TA altogether because either they lacked the commitment or had no-where to go and the CO quite rightly viewed this as a waste of resources. This prevented the majority of hangers on from stretching what should have been 3 years in the OTC (and exceptionally 4 for students with 4 year courses) into 5 or even 6 years (or in the case of one particular officer the best part of a TA career!). That same CO also culled the number of "social" JUO posts (like JUO Xmas Ball, JUO Mess, etc) so that there was only 1 per Athlone Pl, JOU Athlone, MTQ 2 JOU, one per sub-unit, and the SUO. I've heard in recent years the quota of JUO appointments has krept up slightly.

    At the end of the day if someoe is that committed to getting a TA commission then they should be encouraged to look for an appointnment in their final year at the OTC and only be given the refuge of the OTC where there is a need to fill a slot within the structure of the training team and the individual concerned makes a strong case for wanting to complete RMAS over the summer and is actively looking for a Gp A appointment and realistically guarantees to have an appointment to take up after completing annual camp.
  7. 4 A Coy Plts these days, so:
    4 A Coy JUOs
    7 B Coy JUOs (one for each Troop)
    1 JUO A
    1 SUO
  8. Do subbies not get interviewed by the CO/OC when they return to the Unit and say what their availability is and what they would like to do??

    If they do is this normally ignored??
  9. I am such an ex group B subbie, there are a number of factors affecting this issue:

    1) Most Subbies in UOTCs are ex gap year and a very mixed bunch in general, some are mad keen and get themselves onto Platoon tactics courses and such like, others ponce about in germany doing back to back adventure training and therefore turn up with no relevant experience other than the right arm lift. Consequently all subbies in the UOTC get tarred with the same brush whether they earn't their commission over a number of years and then did the new (very good commissioning process) or simply rocked up at RMAS and got taught how to look like an officer on the gappy course.

    2) Alot of group A officers (old guard, not the new generation) are in UOTCs because they have been offloaded by their parent units, consequently many aren't that good and especially don't like giving the reins to someone younger and probably considerably better than them.

    3) The old course was scrapped because it was turning out some very sub par individuals, most young subbies who have done at least two years of keen and eager time in the UOTC, have done the pre-commissioning training, and then sandhurst aswell as the new module 5 are considerably better than the ageing majors and captains who populate UOTCs, especially when talking about the basic soldiering skills and YO level orders and tactics relevant to a UOTC.

    4) UOTCs by definition have too many chiefs and very few indians, by all means have fun, but if you want your own train set or to actually lead soldiers: GET OUT! (I haven't looked back)
  10. The old COs directive used to state that 'group B subbies were to be treated as real officers'.... oh that's terribly good of him! When I got back from Sandhurst I was told in no uncertain terms that subbies were JUOs with priveledges.
  11. Self

    The old guard are still around in some OTCs, and they can block the good intentions of a CO, because no officer, however honest, is going to turn round and say to 25 yr major '2lt x has just been raped for 3 weeks over the 7Qs and will be just as well placed to teach it as you'.

    Like the rest of the army the quality of officers (ta and reg) varies wildly in the otc. However, the impact of the poor ones (who tend to be around the longest and so manage to spread their influence) tends to be that which ruins lifeof the subbies. Particularly the ones who are annoyed that they nolonger hold 'the spell' over the subbies who've been to RMAS as seen the bigger picture (and what the very best officers are like). It is far easier for them to give the good jobs to 20yr old JUOs who won't ask too may questions.
  12. The other problem, particularly with MTQ2, is that most of the teachers have learn't 7Qs by applying the old estimate to what they've read in the TAMs without ever actually being taught it. Consequently whilst 7Qs is meant to be an intuitative process guided by the seven questions, some old salts teaching and assesing it are marking answers as though they were the old estimate, consequently people are suffering, even at Sandhurst. NOT ON!
  13. Arent (shouldn't) most of these positions be on "tours" so they should be getting turned around every 3 (or 6 at the most) years.
  14. good in theory. However...

    1) If their aren't officers in brigades to fill the slots and no slots for them if they leave it can be hard to shift some of them.

    2) Niche builders. How many units have someone who is 'AT officer', a post that doesn't really exist, btu soundes better than 'TMs shadow'

    3) I know of one Captain who arrived at an OTC straight from the regs in 1998 as a Lt(he was going to uni as a non grad) and finally left this year. He never intended to go group A and just stayed, and stayed, and stayed and was allowed to get away with it until a more forceful CO arrived.

    4) If a reg CO comes and goes in two years, and their TA officers dont show desire to have their 'career developed' it is very easy for them to slip under the radar.
  15. Here's one for you: A Captain who was one of the last officers to be allowed to commission straight from UOTC on the back of a CO's interview, without ever having touched the hallowed ground around RMAS. Arrived at a UOTC fifteen years ago, and still clinging on in there as a capt. The NCO's aren't much better, an ex OCdt who didn't commission, still hanging around as a 30 something year old Sergeant, never having served in any unit other than this particular UOTC, still single and still doing his best to shag students, dubious hey?