Minimi LMG to go?

The Irish brought in the 60mm Vektor mortar to replace the old Brandt 60mm and found that some of the bombs had the dismaying tendency to shed their tails after leaving the barrel. Even in saying that, the weapon itself is lighter than the old Brandt and easy to set up for action.
 
'what will replace them?'

A few dozen casualties in the next dust up followed by a massive UOR for belt fed LMGs and light mortars.

Charlie G rumoured to be replacing 60mm so 2 steps back and half a step forward
Which Charlie G is doing the replacing?
 
The Irish brought in the 60mm Vektor mortar to replace the old Brandt 60mm and found that some of the bombs had the dismaying tendency to shed their tails after leaving the barrel. Even in saying that, the weapon itself is lighter than the old Brandt and easy to set up for action.
Think it could have been a quality control issue with South African ammo.

The thing about the Vektor is we give it a 4 man crew including DC (which also helps when you have to carry the ammo).

It can be used in 2 ways - conventional baseplate, bipod etc or commando (a much smaller baseplate and a grip handle)

Also we put a number of them (GPMG(SF)’s and Carl Gs) in a Wpns Pln. Each Inf Coy having one.
Company | Weapons | Army | Defence Forces


Which Charlie G is doing the replacing?
As they would be new buys it would be M3 / M4 I assume
 
@HE117

Yeah but you see this is using the 60 in a fire support role.. in previous decades you would have had a couple of 3"/81mm (and even famously a 25pdr) in the PB to do this, particularly when foot patrols would be going out several Ks from the patrol base. This is morphing the requirement away from a simple close in support weapon to something more complex, needing command and control and indirect fire management.

Totally agree with what you're saying and it's treading a fine line between firepower/capability and mobility/simplicity. My 2p is that something like a 2 man 60mm mortar team per platoon (in PB/harbour) with commanders trained as an MFC lite and something like an RPG for Anti-Armour/bunker busting at section level. The advantage being a decent level of fire support independent from other sub-units and the platoon can tab in its own ammunition should the need arise.

that or crack out the 25 pounders haha

As far as ferkin rifle grenades are concerned, forget it.. we have tried them every decade since 17 howsyourfather, and abandoned them after each new generation finds out how crap and dangerous they are. They are horribly inaccurate, dangerous and unpleasant to use and carry, and have an unerring ability to fall into the mitts of the section idiot..! I have seen no less than four attempts at using rifle grenades in my career.. Energa, L2 clippies, MECAR, SIMON.. The only major users have been Ammo Techs blowing the flaming things up on dem grounds and grenade ranges.. Don't... just don't! At least with 40mm you get to decide beforehand who is trusted to start lobbing HE around the battlefield...!

Haha I'll bow to superior experience on this one, Ive never heard a good word said about them!
 
Ref fire support look what RM did

I’ll use the army terminology but a Cdo (Inf Bn) has:

HQ Coy including 81mm mortar Pln, Javelin A/T Pln, MMG Pln (I assume GPMG SF?) and Recce Pln (which includes Sniper Sect)

Logs Coy

2 x Close Combat Coys each with 3 Inf Plns (each having a support Section with GPMG, marksman/sniper (not sure which) and mortar (not sure which mortar))

2 x Stand off Coys each with A/T Pln, HMG Pln and 1 Inf Pln (with the same support sect as above)



Imho a hell of a lot of firepower but not enough bayonets
 
Ref fire support look what RM did

I’ll use the army terminology but a Cdo (Inf Bn) has:

HQ Coy including 81mm mortar Pln, Javelin A/T Pln, MMG Pln (I assume GPMG SF?) and Recce Pln (which includes Sniper Sect)

Logs Coy

2 x Close Combat Coys each with 3 Inf Plns (each having a support Section with GPMG, marksman/sniper (not sure which) and mortar (not sure which mortar))

2 x Stand off Coys each with A/T Pln, HMG Pln and 1 Inf Pln (with the same support sect as above)



Imho a hell of a lot of firepower but not enough bayonets
Sounds spot on for taking and holding a beachhead, i presume ammunition usage not really a problem as you have a whole fleet behind you for logistics. Same with manoeuvring, as you are dug in holding an area you can have plenty of support weapons without having to worry about moving the things.

I liked our orbat for Herrick, 3 light role rifle coys each with a mounted FSG platoon of 1 mortar section, one jav and one SF guns. Gives a really light and flexible unit for patrols etc.

Bin the vehicles, switch the 81s for 60s and the Jav for Charlie G and I think you'd really have something.
 
Keeping a mortar or the 84 on hand does require the lads to carry a bomb or two each, because of the high consumption.
Yes definitely. I was a support section commander many moons ago with 2 x 84's and 2 x SFMG. At 12 bombs (HE/HEAT/SMK mix) per 84 "You want the support, you carry some of the ammo" was rule of the day for Coy and Pl Comd's. Makes me wonder about the reports out of the US about the Marines adopting the 84 down to squad level (13 man). Thats a lot of guns and a crap load of bombs.
Even the rotary grenade launchers like the M32 are hungry beasts. We played with them and found a reasonable grenadier could maintain an effective 18rds per minute rate of fire out past 400m with standard low velocity ammo. The medium velocity stuff is apparently effective out to 8-900m.
 
Yes definitely. I was a support section commander many moons ago with 2 x 84's and 2 x SFMG. At 12 bombs (HE/HEAT/SMK mix) per 84 "You want the support, you carry some of the ammo" was rule of the day for Coy and Pl Comd's. Makes me wonder about the reports out of the US about the Marines adopting the 84 down to squad level (13 man). Thats a lot of guns and a crap load of bombs.
Even the rotary grenade launchers like the M32 are hungry beasts. We played with them and found a reasonable grenadier could maintain an effective 18rds per minute rate of fire out past 400m with standard low velocity ammo. The medium velocity stuff is apparently effective out to 8-900m.
Standard USMC rifle squad size is dropping/has dropped to 12 men.
 
Lets have a modernised L4!

Perhaps titanium body, polymer mags, optics system. Not much else required.

I'm perfectly serious.

p.s. in comment to the earlier point about "mags not a good idea because they have to be retained for refilling, etc", during the last two occasions we have fought high intensity warfare (WW2, Korea), Bren and Sten mags were actually often brought forward pre-filled via the resupply system. The mags were in effect disposable, and their refilling/resupply was thus never an issue. It only becomes an issue when procurement has been financially limited to four mags and a cleaning kit per weapon...

I started reading this thread with a wager to myself that, in a reflection of the That Rifle Thing, someone would be arguing for Brens returning.


I owe myself £5.


As an aside, I once showed my Grandad (1939-46) my LMG pamphlets, they were spookily similar to the Bren ones he dug out of his loft except for metric etc. Even the illustrations were the same, except for redrawn with straight mags and no puttees.
 
Standard USMC rifle squad size is dropping/has dropped to 12 men.
Seen that's in the pipeline for them. Don't think its taken place yet and still conceptual. Funnily enough, they aren't actually loosing the 13th per, just not manning the position. The idea being if the idea doesn't work, they can man the empty slot an go back to 4 man fire teams from 3. The "Squad Systems operator" idea will also take time to sort or it will just become a "flashy it name" for rifleman n.o.3 in the squad. They will have to do a step up as well as they are adding an assistant squad leader (aka 2IC) from within the 12 pers.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
I can remember when rifle platoons would regularly drop to 18 all ranks on ops and still have the same taskings.
 
Seen this on a yank site about the org of UK sections. So it looks like after trying to make things lighter and more accurate they want to put the L7 back into the section. Running with one GPMG, one sharpshooter and 2 UBGL's. It links to an article in the Soldier mag in the UK.
British Army Rebalances Small Unit Weapons Load Out - The Firearm Blog
So 2 blokes taken out to effectively man and use the GPMG to it's full potential. How much link are they carrying ? 800rds on the gunner and a belt of 200 per man ? The Infantry 2020 option with 5 blokes and 2 GPMG at Platoon HQ was a better option or is it case of accepting that manpower is deeply limited.. ?
 
Yeah I don't know how they are looking at cracking it. I've seen mention of bringing the likes of the CG 84 back into service or something like the M 32 grenade launcher at Pl level for HE capability over that of the UBGL. Maybe that's where they could go under Pl HQ with the machine guns pushed down in the sections. The problem with the GPMG is it is a crew/pair served weapon where as something like the 7.62 Minimi is light and flexible enough to be used by one person if required.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
We managed to operate gpmgs as personal weapons in the 1980's two per section and an 84mm per setion too!
 
Yeah they can be so long as you have reasonably trained soldiers in the sections with adequate time on the the guns. As I understand it from posts here is that isn't the case currently for in a lot of UK Inf Bn's. On our section commanders course when we had the 2x 5.56mm minimi it wasn't unusual to also be given a GPMG and an 84mm for particular tasks like standing patrols etc. Often the minimi's weren't swapped out but became 'automatic' rifles. Now for us with the 7.62mm minimi's, the GPMG's only really come into their own past 6-700m mark in regards to accuracy and consistent beaten zones. For the likes of defensive ops we may swap out a 7.62 minimi for a GPMG with SF kit.
 
Sounds spot on for taking and holding a beachhead, i presume ammunition usage not really a problem as you have a whole fleet behind you for logistics. Same with manoeuvring, as you are dug in holding an area you can have plenty of support weapons without having to worry about moving the things.

I liked our orbat for Herrick, 3 light role rifle coys each with a mounted FSG platoon of 1 mortar section, one jav and one SF guns. Gives a really light and flexible unit for patrols etc.

Bin the vehicles, switch the 81s for 60s and the Jav for Charlie G and I think you'd really have something.
2 rifle pl and 1 fsg pl or 3 rifle pl and 1 fsg pl?
 

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