Military Police on MoD Oracle

#1
Noticed this link from MoD oracle, as an MDP officer it can get frustrating when they frequently term the MDP as military police, as it can give the wrong impression of what our role is within the MoD. Especially to people outside the wider MoD, when I was serving in the army I had little or no idea about the MDP. Just wondered from a service police perspective what is the feeling when they see headlines such as the one seen.(would do a link but not sure how)
Leigh
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#2
Is this what you mean:
http://www.modoracle.com/

Military Police Help Combat Terrorism

Thursday, August 30, 2007

Source: MoD


The expertise and experience that MOD Police officers showed when assessing the security needs of key UK gas processing installations for the Home Office, meant they were considered the only Police Force capable of providing the necessary armed security to protect the sites against potential terror attacks.

Six months on and the MOD has agreed in principle to endorse a further request from the Home Office that the MOD Police (MDP) continue with this task, part of the UK’s counter-terrorist strategy, on a long-term basis.

The project, Operation Vintage, is the most significant non-MOD tasking in the history of MDP. It involves providing high visibility armed police patrols outside the plants, which form a critical part of the national infrastructure, and which could pose a tempting target for any would-be terrorists. MDP Superintendent Mark Foulger, the HQ co-ordinator of the operation, explained further:

"The purpose of the operation is to deter, disrupt and detect terrorist activity and to defend installations in the event of an attack by a defined threat, for which a traditional police response would not be effective. All of our officers are armed or capable of being armed. They are in uniform and are high profile."

The gas processing installations are spread throughout two of MDP’s Divisions – North East and Scotland:

"They are all heavy industrial sites, very remote, very coastal, surrounded by difficult terrain, a really unusual environment for us to be operating in, which has presented quite a few challenges," added Supt Foulger.

"They are privately run sites, which is another unusual thing for us. They are operated by various consortia of oil and gas companies, each with their own site-within-a-site, which is another complication. There can be five separate sites at one location, each with their own particular attributes.

"The sites themselves have extremely good perimeter security, which would compare very well with most MOD establishments. They are very modern, with CCTV and sterile zones."

The sites are situated in areas covered by three local Police Forces, Grampian, Humberside and Norfolk, that the MDP had not had regular dealings with in the past, but as Supt Foulger explained:

"We have had a lot of support from local forces. It was important to quickly establish a good working relationship with them, especially as these facilities are so remote. The site operators have been extremely supportive, too. They can be difficult customers to build a relationship with, not because they are difficult as individuals, but because of the complicated arrangements on these sites.

"We have also had a very positive response from the local communities, for which the officers on the ground can take all the credit, they've worked really hard to establish that. They have liaised with the local community officers, listened to local concerns and responded effectively."

The project got the go ahead in January 2007 and officers were on the ground within 14 days:

"It was an enormous logistical challenge, to get all the infrastructure in place,” said Supt Foulger. "All of the infrastructure, temporary buildings, portable loos, had to be ordered in by us in short order. No-one else could do it."

Supt Foulger explained that MDP carry out external patrols of each of the four sites on foot and in vehicles:

"We are using 4x4 vehicles for the mobile patrols, because of the difficult nature of the terrain. They have been absolutely essential and they also help to raise the profile of the policing operation because of the difference in appearance to the local Force vehicles, although they are clearly identifiable as police patrols.

"The patrols are confined to the exterior of the sites for two main reasons,” he added. “Because of the nature of these sites it would be difficult to operate inside from a health and safety point of view and, most importantly, firearms and gas terminals do not naturally mix together well!" he added.

In the remote environment, miles from anywhere, with patchy mobile phone connection and limited land line coverage, communications could also have been a problem:

"Airwave radio has been absolutely superb for this operation, the coverage has been terrific, our communications are very robust, allowing us to talk to our own control rooms and those of the local Forces instantaneously."

Supt Foulger also sees another key advantage of using MDP for the security of the sites:

"Officers with the necessary skills were all readily available in the required numbers. For other forces that would have been difficult to achieve. As a fully armed force we have much larger numbers of officers with these skills than similar sized local forces.

"What we are doing at these sites is what we do at a number of our MOD locations,” he concluded, "providing armed security in a positive way, using constabulary powers. It is what we are experienced at and that has shown up during the past few months and will continue to enhance our reputation in the years to come."
 
#5
I agree, you are not Military Police and your role differs greatly from those who are, although the main difference being the powers that the RMP have over in Germany, thanks to the Staus of Forces Agreement they are more of an active policing body than the MDP. :p

Although the MDP are used to great effect here in the UK and are renound for the high standard of guarding and protecting security/sensitive locations together with their Fraud squad being 'not bad'. I believe they were also heavily used in the aftermath of the 7/7 bombings in london, however, like the RMP they are not a HO force.

There is argument though that by expanding the powers of the UK based RMP would allow the MDP to be disbanded which in turn would free up a large amount of funding all round.

So the question should be 'Do you think that the MDP are justified as a Force or could the RMP take on their role effectively?

Just thought I would play devils advocate :lol:

Your comments please
 
#6
whocares said:
I
So the question should be 'Do you think that the MDP are justified as a Force or could the RMP take on their role effectively?

Just thought I would play devils advocate :lol:

Your comments please
Yes. MDP have a core role to play in Garrison policing and do a great job, particularly in policing SFA areas.

No. Our Garrison has seen a substantial reduction in MDP numbers and the current policy of brigading MDP assets, and then responding as necessary to incidents, is utterly ineffective. No amount of target setting and promised response times will affect this reality - what is needed is eyes on the ground. The RMP simply cannot pick up the gap left in capability as most of the incumbent Provo company are established for operations, with the home policing element distinctly in the minority (and already supporting the civil police in the town centre).
 
#8
ukdaytona said:
What if (while on Military Establishments) the RMP/RAF Plod/Navy Plod were responsible for MOD Plod?
Ah, are we talking about a tri service/quad service defence police force? I am sure some will have things to say about this BUT already the RMP, Naval Provost and RAFP together with the MDP engage on joint training in certain areas.
 
#9
Leigh1526:
Are the MOD Police recruiting extra manpower to cope with the increased responsibility, I am out soon and live near a gas terminal in Humberside. How long do you see this commitment going on for?

Thanks
 
#10
Most peoples's view of MDP is the armed guarding of nuclear assets, standing on gates etc etc, this is still a police role. Certainly I started my police career at Aldermaston, an all civil establishment apart from about 3 service personnel. In terms of RMP taking on MDP role and disbanding MDP interesting concept however, a lot of these places especially at AWE and on the clyde there is a large anti nuclear protest. It is government policy that uniformed civil police officers deal with these people. Something we are very good at, I think the last thing government wants to see are soldiers deal with the wider community outside an emergency. MDP officers are all attested constables under the MoD Police Act 1987, service police are not and have no status in law. ie if dealing with an incident they have witnessed not involving service personnel then they can only use any person powers and only arrest for indictable offences. In terms of policing I am a sgt at Whitehall where there are no fences or gates and everything we do is out on the streets, a large amount of anti terrorist stuff s44 terrorist searches etc. Where we deal with everything that we find, and it pays quite well. In terms of liaison I like to pop down to Rochester Row now again for a cuppa, RECMEC yes they are going to make the gas terminals permanent stations nothings been advertised yet in force but they are going to need at least 160 officers.
Leigh
 
#11
Can I highjack your thread and ask a possibly stupid question?

Can someone list all the police and guarding organisations that the MoD has and include a brief description (in idiot language) of what they do?

That way I'll make sure I have the correct description before I slag them off :D
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#12
pombsen-armchair-warrior said:
whocares said:
I
So the question should be 'Do you think that the MDP are justified as a Force or could the RMP take on their role effectively?

Just thought I would play devils advocate :lol:

Your comments please
Yes. MDP have a core role to play in Garrison policing and do a great job, particularly in policing SFA areas.

No. Our Garrison has seen a substantial reduction in MDP numbers and the current policy of brigading MDP assets, and then responding as necessary to incidents, is utterly ineffective. No amount of target setting and promised response times will affect this reality - what is needed is eyes on the ground. The RMP simply cannot pick up the gap left in capability as most of the incumbent Provo company are established for operations, with the home policing element distinctly in the minority (and already supporting the civil police in the town centre).
PAW, what exactly is the core role of MDP? Here in North Yorks not so long ago, they were told to stay inside the wire by the locals. The locals, being short on Bobbies, then had an agreement with MDP that they deal with all civil crime inside the wire (Garrison). This allowed the locals to redploy their thin blue line elsewhere.

Why do MDP exist? I live in the country's biggest Garrison and I never see them. So I don't agree that they do a great job in the SFA areas. Don't get me wrong, it's not a dislike thing, I've made quite a few firm friends in MDP, but I'm buggered if I can see what they do. Do they still have Agency Status? If so, why should the Comd of 19 Bde pay for their services ,when he has RMP to deal with his soldiers and North Yorks Police to deal with the dependants and any contractors as they would any other citizen. What about the MGF? The question of MDP guarding against terrorism in any military location is a question which needs raising in Parliament. Dare I say that job can be done equally if not better by service personnel who cost less? Can the MOD afford it's own private police force. We allegedly couldn't afford to keep certain Battalions, but we keep an expensive commodity which does very little in the way of policing. The same could be uttered about the SErvice Police, but they at least have an Ops role.

About 20 odd years ago, they were going to disband the MDP. Their CC at that time must have been some sweet talker as he came out of the interview with a mandate for more men. Good drills for him, but they are expensive and not exactly overworked and run down with crime.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#13
Have a look at:

htp:www.modpoliceofficers.co.uk/role_of_the_mdp.asp

The first paragraph says it all. It partially alludes to policing in the first instance then admits its a guard service. Guarding Nuclear Bases....why don't the use the AE Constabulary (have they changed their name recently?). The paragraph hints that guarding is a main role of the County Constabularies. Tosh.

It looks to me as if the MDP are grasping for jobs to justify their existence. Perhaps in Whitehall they do have a policing role, but it's not one which couldn't be done by the locals and it can't be big enough to keep them all afloat. Powers of arrest for tackling Nuclear Protesters? Apart from there not being a enough service personnel of recent, why couldn't a soldier be sworn in as a Special for inside the wire only activities? The Guard Service in Lisburn are sworn Special Constables, so why not Joe Squaddie?

MDP are prospering on the numbers game.

Can anyone from the MDP give a link to their crime figures for 2005/2006?
 
#14
MDP are empire building, that's all. The job they do can be dome more effectively and more cheaply ny others, as Biccies says.
 
#15
Biscuits_AB said:
pombsen-armchair-warrior said:
whocares said:
I
So the question should be 'Do you think that the MDP are justified as a Force or could the RMP take on their role effectively?

Just thought I would play devils advocate :lol:

Your comments please
Yes. MDP have a core role to play in Garrison policing and do a great job, particularly in policing SFA areas.

No. Our Garrison has seen a substantial reduction in MDP numbers and the current policy of brigading MDP assets, and then responding as necessary to incidents, is utterly ineffective. No amount of target setting and promised response times will affect this reality - what is needed is eyes on the ground. The RMP simply cannot pick up the gap left in capability as most of the incumbent Provo company are established for operations, with the home policing element distinctly in the minority (and already supporting the civil police in the town centre).
PAW, what exactly is the core role of MDP? Here in North Yorks not so long ago, they were told to stay inside the wire by the locals. The locals, being short on Bobbies, then had an agreement with MDP that they deal with all civil crime inside the wire (Garrison). This allowed the locals to redploy their thin blue line elsewhere.

Why do MDP exist? I live in the country's biggest Garrison and I never see them. So I don't agree that they do a great job in the SFA areas. Don't get me wrong, it's not a dislike thing, I've made quite a few firm friends in MDP, but I'm buggered if I can see what they do. Do they still have Agency Status? If so, why should the Comd of 19 Bde pay for their services ,when he has RMP to deal with his soldiers and North Yorks Police to deal with the dependants and any contractors as they would any other citizen. What about the MGF? The question of MDP guarding against terrorism in any military location is a question which needs raising in Parliament. Dare I say that job can be done equally if not better by service personnel who cost less? Can the MOD afford it's own private police force. We allegedly couldn't afford to keep certain Battalions, but we keep an expensive commodity which does very little in the way of policing. The same could be uttered about the SErvice Police, but they at least have an Ops role.

About 20 odd years ago, they were going to disband the MDP. Their CC at that time must have been some sweet talker as he came out of the interview with a mandate for more men. Good drills for him, but they are expensive and not exactly overworked and run down with crime.
Biscuits,

You make some good points. However, in my particular Garrison they do patrol the patch, they do it regularly, and they do it effectively.

I totally agree with your point about funding, which is why LAND pulled the plug on many MDP posts. After all, why should the MoD pay to police the patch when the CC and tax we all pay should be funding this capability? Well, quite simply because if we relied on the local plod, or any other local service for that matter, we wouldn't get any service. That is why we continue to fund community centres, creches, and playgroups from MoD funds and spend such a lot of time helping out in local (service family heavy) schools - it's either that or diddly squat.

Not good, but with many soldiers deployed on ops, including much of the Provo Coy, and with hardly a copper to be seen in town let alone on the patch, the families welcome, and are reassured by, an MDP presence.

PAW
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#16
How effectively though? Have you got a crime problem and if so, how are they dealing with it. Do local residents have access to information which shows what they are doing and how effective they are at it. Being effective in a quiet crime free MSQ patch is great, but you need to have a problem in the first instance to show how effective your strategies are. If they are merely a uniformed deterrent, fair enough, but isn't that just another form of 'guarding', which is what they appear to be all about. Security is great, but they are expensive. Who's paying for them? I appreciate that it's a different departmental budget, but wouldn't the money be better spent on Policemen who are policing rather than policemen who are guarding.

They seem to be thrown a life line each time the Army bombs up. This is what they are using as justification for their existence. A very expensive guard service is what you have if you look at the majority of their employment roles.
 
#17
I thought the Military were not allowed to get involved without Government (be it local or national) requesting help. Also how would local Plod feel if RMP/Squaddies came rolling in to town to help out??

I bet the Human Rights brigade would be getting out the local ambulance chasers phone numbers, where as most civvies would not realise the difference between Plod and MoD Plod and so they have a role of working between the Local Plod & RMP..... Also, how do you think the public would take it if the armed forces were guarding a gas installation and shot someone ?? Big outcry (whether it was justified or not) and even more cutbacks where as Plod - enquiry then bury it under the mat.......
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#18
ukdaytona said:
I thought the Military were not allowed to get involved without Government (be it local or national) requesting help. Also how would local Plod feel if RMP/Squaddies came rolling in to town to help out??

I bet the Human Rights brigade would be getting out the local ambulance chasers phone numbers, where as most civvies would not realise the difference between Plod and MoD Plod and so they have a role of working between the Local Plod & RMP..... Also, how do you think the public would take it if the armed forces were guarding a gas installation and shot someone ?? Big outcry (whether it was justified or not) and even more cutbacks where as Plod - enquiry then bury it under the mat.......
I'm not sure if I fully understand you but here goes:

The MDP are employed on MoD turf and so would soldiers be (if you have a look at the jurisdiction of MDP, it's within 50 miles (may be more) of any MoD building/property....which if you look at all the MoD buildings/property gives MDP the largest jurisdiction in the country). Not that soldiers would need that level of power as they would be working inside the wire. Anyway, soldiers guarding MoD property? Who'd have thought about it eh?

RMP have and do give more assistance to CivPol in Garrison areas in relation to public order offences involving military personnel. I've never seen an MDP patrol anywhere near a town centre or in aid of the locals. Never heard any complaints from local councillors about RMP patrolling their constituencies. Doubt I ever will. That's not to say that I've heard any complaints about MDP.

Soldiers guarding gas installations? Why would they want to be? Mind you, they're more likely to be employed in that role than MDP (who wouldn't be there in the first place) if the Government felt it necessary.
 
#19
I have mentioned this before but I will restate it. The whole MOD guarding/policing thing is a bit of a shambles which is surprising considering the time they have had to sort it out, but, it is similar to the Int thing in Northern Ireland in the past where there were too many fiefdoms and private armies squabbling over a very small plate.

Lets see if I name all of them:

MDP
RMP
RAFP
RNP
RM Police
MOD Guard Service
MPGS

Oh and lets not forget the Sy side of the Int Corps who are responsible in some manner for Security, but in fairness leave them out because I don't know enough about what they do, but they do depend on MPGS to do their security at Chicksands.

All of the listed organisations are located where history deposited them ergo a bunch of stores in Donnington got RMP and MDP whereas Bicester didn't have RMP within 30 miles. The MPGS although a part of AGC and under the PM(A) secures as many RAF posts as Army with about 20% of it's task committed to the RN and RM. Although the further you go from Upavon the fewer there are.

Just look at the simple task of Barrier lifting, move across the defence estate and you will find all of the above in various combination and on occasion with other service personnel it is a complete lottery and in some instances you will find nobody at all. Put a MOD GS person on the gate and you will find a Darth Vader lookalike from the MDP stood behing him with a state of the art machine pistol. I used to be able to open a gate carrying a rifle why does it take two to do it?

This is not a slag off of any particular organisation as they all contain good and bad, but you have to take your hat off to MOD Police management who can spot a snowflake in the desert at 300 miles. If any high profile event takes place anywhere in the country they rock up in seconds offering manpower and equipment and what Chief Constable is going to refuse? Remember the Stonehenge Festivals? They flew their QRF in full riot gear from Scotland for that one. Trafalgar Day? London Bombings? New Age Travellers? You can find MOD land everywhere and they will always be there when there is a good bit of PR to be gained. Everyone's a winner the people get loads of overtime and the bosses there egos polished.

Who do you see everday at Main Building? MOD Police and what have RMP done? Binned Foreign Office escorts and skulked off to Aldershot turning Rochester Row into a Det. Great PR Management.
 

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