Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP)

#1
Is it time we pushed MACP responsibilities back to the civil power, such as

EOD
Search and Rescue
Humanitarian support (I.e supplying bottled water during the floods)

There are of course many others (fire strike!). Apart from costing a fortune to maintain these capabilities, it is extremely morale sapping having to step in and do the work of others because it's a cheap option.

If we are obliged to maintain these services, should they be run as a business and provided at a profitable cost?
 
#2
Jim30 (the bloke who thinks employing CS will save a fortune) said that the military are not suppose to help out anymore unless lives are at risk, although the Navy went to "rescue" some stranded tourists when volcano ash stopped all air travel.
 
#3
Is it time we pushed MACP responsibilities back to the civil power, such as

EOD
Search and Rescue
Humanitarian support (I.e supplying bottled water during the floods)

There are of course many others (fire strike!). Apart from costing a fortune to maintain these capabilities, it is extremely morale sapping having to step in and do the work of others because it's a cheap option.

If we are obliged to maintain these services, should they be run as a business and provided at a profitable cost?
have G4S been talking to you?
They made a pitch to the Civil Contingency Secretariat following this presentation

CCS did the sums, looked at the frequency of events and said no.
In terms of SAR, the proposed SAR-H replacement programme Soteria was put on hold by the collation government to review the life time costs of the PFI of around £7Bn over 25 years (that's a lot for 24 S-92s!)

EOD - can't say but doesn't the Met have it's own set up and how does that work?

One thing to consider is that the tone of Military contribution to Civil Resilience has changed in the last year or so, from "last resort only" to "include us in your planning, but not as a sole solution".
The Bridge at cockermouth build by RE AES is an example of this, it was a recovery task when danger to life and limb couldn't really be justified, yet full costs weren't applied
 
#4
The Met does indeed have it's own EOD assets, paid for out of it's own budget. It's time other police forces followed suit.
 
#5
The Met does indeed have it's own EOD assets, paid for out of it's own budget. It's time other police forces followed suit.
do other police forces have the frequency of incidents to justify an individual unit per police force? without going into operational details, i thought each detachment covered more than one police force area?
 
#6
Is it time we pushed MACP responsibilities back to the civil power, such as

EOD
Search and Rescue
Humanitarian support (I.e supplying bottled water during the floods)

There are of course many others (fire strike!). Apart from costing a fortune to maintain these capabilities, it is extremely morale sapping having to step in and do the work of others because it's a cheap option.

If we are obliged to maintain these services, should they be run as a business and provided at a profitable cost?
with the exception of EOD most of it has been shed or is in the process of being shed

SAR - Soteria for helicopters and the RAFMRTs are now all 2nd hatters as MRT

the MOD has already said no more for fire strikes - there have been localised strikes (S yorks for one) which have been covered by managerial / training school FFs, retained crews and Mutual Aid

all the Ambulance industrial action since 89 has been covered by managerial grades and civilian volunteer resources
 
#8
What about counter terrorist support to mainland U.K in the event od seiges and other such incidents? Losing this role would free up UKSF elements currently operationaly stretched.

What about events such as lare scale flooding, where the contribtution of the military has saved lives and helped to protect property, or foot and mouth uotbreaks where the government has needed manpower in great numbers to control the outbreak. I can think of little alternative but to utilise the military.

Lets not forget the biggest "Military Aid to the Civil Power" operation of all - N.Ireland.
 
#9
Is it time we pushed MACP responsibilities back to the civil power, such as

it is extremely morale sapping having to step in and do the work of others because it's a cheap option.
Sorry Dingerr, strongly disagree with that. Have worked on 2 x UK Floods, Foot and Mouth and 1x Fire Strike as well as doing MACP overseas as well. and a bit of unofficial MACP during the recent winter. Maybe you should practice your Leadership skills? Because the only time any soldiers I have worked with were pissed off doing these were when they missed meals!

Fire Strike was a bone of contention, when we knew how much they got paid in comparison to us (at the time). but what pissed the lads and lasses off more was some twat trying to tie us up in H&S Red Tape all the time....

Public's response has always surprised us (in support of) and always raised morale.

However enduring MACP in this current operational climate, when most units and old and bold are already threaders with operational demand. Would probably cause wide spread angst both in the C&C and also the troops. Try telling your boys now, that in between training for Ops and being on Ops they have to go spend another week away from home to cover yet another fire strike or a 2 month MACP of burning more Cows due to Government ineptitude.

with regard to short term MACP, troops morale would remain high helping families and OAPs for a few days- a week and I suggest their own families would probably be slightly more encouraging if they said they had to go help people for a week rather than going on yet another bone PDT exercise for a week.
 
#10
Jim30 (the bloke who thinks employing CS will save a fortune) said that the military are not suppose to help out anymore unless lives are at risk, although the Navy went to "rescue" some stranded tourists when volcano ash stopped all air travel.
Er, didn't the Andy go to pick up the Rifles (after a grueling tour of Sangin) and gave the extra space to 'vulnerable' tourists (as picked by the local Embassy)....

As for MACP, we should do it, and we should be funded for it. For a number of reasons.

One. We are Her Majesty's Armed Forces, and we are force for all things good and proper, we should help her subjects in times of need.
Two. Who else is going to do it? To the same standard? The labour party, perhaps?
Three. It is excellent training/experience for us (as mentioned above).
Four. It looks the b0110cks in the papers/media.

All that we really need is the money... from the government.
 
#11
#12
Sorry Dingerr, strongly disagree with that. Have worked on 2 x UK Floods, Foot and Mouth and 1x Fire Strike as well as doing MACP overseas as well. and a bit of unofficial MACP during the recent winter. Maybe you should practice your Leadership skills? Because the only time any soldiers I have worked with were pissed off doing these were when they missed meals!

Fire Strike was a bone of contention, when we knew how much they got paid in comparison to us (at the time). but what pissed the lads and lasses off more was some twat trying to tie us up in H&S Red Tape all the time....
Seems like you just contradicted your own argument there. Well done, especially as you managed to throw insults into the mix.

It was the fire strike that I was thinking of when I made the comment.


Public's response has always surprised us (in support of) and always raised morale.
I'm surprised morale needed lifting, especially when such a great leader as you were present.

However enduring MACP in this current operational climate, when most units and old and bold are already threaders with operational demand. Would probably cause wide spread angst both in the C&C and also the troops. Try telling your boys now, that in between training for Ops and being on Ops they have to go spend another week away from home to cover yet another fire strike or a 2 month MACP of burning more Cows due to Government ineptitude.

with regard to short term MACP, troops morale would remain high helping families and OAPs for a few days- a week and I suggest their own families would probably be slightly more encouraging if they said they had to go help people for a week rather than going on yet another bone PDT exercise for a week.
Although I mentioned morale, it was only as an aside to the real subject of cost to the MoD.

We do currently endure a number of MACP operations, primarily providing EOD, at great cost.
 
#13
Sorry Dingerr, strongly disagree with that. Have worked on 2 x UK Floods, Foot and Mouth and 1x Fire Strike as well as doing MACP overseas as well. and a bit of unofficial MACP during the recent winter. Maybe you should practice your Leadership skills? Because the only time any soldiers I have worked with were pissed off doing these were when they missed meals!
I helped out with the Bedford floods in 1997 (Filling sandbags), Quite a few soldiers were pissed off at being shoved in a gym storage room on a TA barracks, doing all the graft while the council workers stood around getting double bubble because it was an Easter weekend.
 
#14
I helped out with the Bedford floods in 1997 (Filling sandbags), Quite a few soldiers were pissed off at being shoved in a gym storage room on a TA barracks, doing all the graft while the council workers stood around getting double bubble because it was an Easter weekend.
No, it must be down to your shit leadership skills. It looks like we are both in need of the great leader Azrael2006 to teach us what it takes to lead men.
 
#15
Dingerr,
In the absence of Jim30, I'll roll out the party line!
Defence Contribution to Resilience has 3 principles:
1.The military are used when all other options have been discounted and Mutual Aid,contractors etc is unsuitable/insufficient
2. The civil authority making the request lacks the capability and it is unreasonable or prohibitively expensive to develop.
3. There is a civil capability, but the need is urgent/resources are lacking.

EOD fits into one of the "pillars" of the DEFCON provision, that of Force Elements providing Niche Capabilities.

EOD could be privatised, I know of some reasonable training establishments that provide EOD trg to foreign security forces, however I do want to raise a thought here: if the boyos decide to start another mainland bombing campaign, who would you rather see on the streets ISS Chilmark (for example) graduates or Regular Army EOD?

The other thought here is thin end of the wedge: if Military EOD is only for overseas operations, and it has been successfully privatised in UK, some bright spark will look at contractorising the Military EOD - "after all we only need it when we are overseas, and when we pull out of afghanistan, we won't have any more wars"
 
#16
The Civil Contingency Act responders have come a long way since foot and mouth, fuel protests etc and have genuinely got their act together so I think the general shrinking of defence involvement coincided with an expansion of civilian capability but interestingly the conservative manifesto called for a greater involvement which caused of the emergency planners I know a bit of confusion, left leg in right leg out style.

Didn't the charging mechanism also discourage category 1 responders from using the MoD?

I wonder if the SDSR cover the area in any detail?

Dinger has a point, as the forces shrink these duties will become disproportionate but a number of capabilities such as specialist EOD would seem to need to be retained in the public sector, can you imagine the insurance for a private sector provider!

Whether that is the MoD or some other agency is open for debate, as SBP says, who would you prefer

On SAR, I think that needs to be retained with the public sector as far as possible but not sure why we need two services providing only a proportion of the capability. Perhaps a beefed up Coastguard with selective contracting, dunno!
 
#17
Although I mentioned morale, it was only as an aside to the real subject of cost to the MoD.
Your the one that said MACP was extremely morale sapping not me! I replied that in the majority of cases that me and others were on MACP. There are always highs and lows in anything that involves arduous conditions, but the overall effect on people was a positive one. There are exceptions to everyone's experiences as Stacker1 mentioned

The Overall positive experiences were In part due to human/civvy response, in part due to positive media and general feel good factor and in part when people are ball bagged, having a bit of leadership to pull them through. Which judging from your short fused tirade, probably says a lot of how you lead people.

@Stacker1 who wouldn't be pissed off when those around you are working half as hard for twice the money. They probably pulled in European Working hours to make sure they didn't have to work 18 hour days like the you and the other lads did. At least the RAF weren't there to help, putting in claims for hotel bills ;)

@Dingerr switch to decaff mate

In terms of finances, it would be nice when the Govt gives the Green light to the MOD, that they at least foot the tab for it. It would probably be cheaper than the bills the local councils will be putting in anyway...... Then again we are still waiting for the Govt to foot the bill for Iraq 2003 aren't we?
 
#18
@Stacker1 who wouldn't be pissed off when those around you are working half as hard for twice the money. They probably pulled in European Working hours to make sure they didn't have to work 18 hour days like the you and the other lads did. At least the RAF weren't there to help, putting in claims for hotel bills ;)
Thats what makes me think few soldiers would be happy with it, I havnt done the fire strikes but didnt the soldiers once again get put up in village halls and the like because strikers who earn more money than them wanted even more.
If its something like delivering aid to Barbados I'm sure it would be good for morale, but the most of the events I can think of are far from a morale building exercise, the foot and mouth outbreak, the fire strikes, numerous floods etc, always compounded by the fact that because you are military they can house you in a kennel and the civvies who are supposed to be helping you are making a packet.

Its rare a soldier is ever going to benefit from MACP, why would they be happy?
 
#20

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