Migrant Rescue Ships

#21
Of course - they can return them to Libya/North African coast because its 'not safe'

The answer is a large (UN run?) Refugee camp on the NA coast that they can be safely returned to - and from where any claims for asylum/refugee status can be processed and legitimate refugees shipped to the EU and other countries in a supported fashion.
...because that worked at Calais...

(Substitute EU for UN)
 
#22
Of course - they can return them to Libya/North African coast because its 'not safe'

The answer is a large (UN run?) Refugee camp on the NA coast that they can be safely returned to - and from where any claims for asylum/refugee status can be processed and legitimate refugees shipped to the EU and other countries in a supported fashion.
A couple of us on this thread have put forward exactly the same idea.
If Arssers have thought about this solution , surely our 'betters' , must have considered it.
Or, perhaps, we think more clearly without the political and fluffy baggage.
 
#23
Also most of them who came to the UK and the US integrated built up business and families, and oddly many 3rd generation have returned home to bring their skills to the homeland
The disused RAF Watton in Norfolk was used to house the boat people by letting them live in abandoned MQ's many have settled in Norfolk.
I was quarted at RAF Swanton Morley nr East Dereham Norfolk 1980, while I was my Regiments Information Team. I stopped off for a NAAFI break in a small cafe in Watton and had a very interesting chat about the Vietnam war with a former translater from the US Embassy in Saigon.
He was one of those who missed the huey on the pull out, what he told me about his life under commie rule no wonder he risked all by fleeing in a unseaworthy boat. He told me he hoped to become British as HM The Queen saved his family and he will do anything to repay his and his families gratitude
 
#24
A couple of us on this thread have put forward exactly the same idea.
If Arssers have thought about this solution , surely our 'betters' , must have considered it.
Or, perhaps, we think more clearly without the political and fluffy baggage.
Which North African country is going to donate a large area of territory for the camp, knowing full well that, at some stage (when the next crisis erupts), the UN will withdraw financial support and they'll be left to provide for the welfare of the refugees.

And it still won't stop traffickers. In fact, it'll make it easier for them with their customers all being in one place.
 
#25
Sharqi Island, Tunisia. Nothing to do with that boring has-been of a Sea Harrier pilot, before Yokel comes running............

20 km off the coast of Tunisia, an area of water that'd be a piece of p**s to patrol with an EU / NATO FRONTEX style cutter / light vessel force. The Tunisian Govt are economically flat on their arses, rent the island from them for a suitable sum, and contract the running of refugee centres out to the Tunisians by means of payment (and oversight) from the UN / EU. A suitable multinational civil engineering programme could build basic, but safe and fit-for-purpose accommodation, pretty quickly.

The Tunisian GDP, according to World Bank figures, was c$42bn in 2016, can't find figures for 2017. The EU counter immigration budget for 2021-27 is forecast as 34.9bn Euros: Commission wants bigger budget for smaller EU


In simple terms, outsource the problem..........

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#27
It's a problem, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Nobody wants them but it would be uncivilised to let them drown.

A solution may be to rescue them but offload them where they really don't want to go (and advertise that this will be the outcome). But where? An uninhabited yet habitable island? Not many of them left. South Georgia springs to mind but it's a long way off.
They would not be trying it such large numbers if there were not big ships patrolling the N African coast to pick them up and ferry them to europe.

It is the people trafficking of the NGO´s that is responsible for the deaths of so many who try it and drown before they get picked up.

 
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#28
If there is any doubt over how these NGO boats are operating, we have marinetracker, like flight radar for ships.

You can see them literally sailing back and forth between Lybia and Italy.


Lifeline - A supposed SAR ship can be tracked here - Vessel details for: LIFELINE (SAR) - MMSI 244870698, Call Sign PD8224 Registered in Netherlands | AIS Marine Traffic

Lifeline is the one under the severe spotlight at the moment but they reacted to being told that if they cam to Italy they would be impounded by switching their xponder off.

It´s back on now though as they head to Malta
 
#29
They would not be trying it such large numbers if there were not big ships patrolling the N African coast to pick them up and ferry them to europe.

It is the people trafficking of the NGO´s that is responsible for the deaths of so many who try it and drown before they get picked up.
ISTR that before the do-gooders got involved, a similar number of refugees got half way across the water before the crew legged it to return for the next lot.

It has rarely, if ever, been in the interests of the crew to complete the journey as they'd end up in jail. If the rescue vessels are helping the traffickers in any way, it's probably just by saving on their fuel costs and assuaging any semblance of guilt that they may have. But I wouldn't hold my breath on that last one.
 
#30
ISTR that before the do-gooders got involved, a similar number of refugees got half way across the water before the crew legged it to return for the next lot.

It has rarely, if ever, been in the interests of the crew to complete the journey as they'd end up in jail. If the rescue vessels are helping the traffickers in any way, it's probably just by saving on their fuel costs and assuaging any semblance of guilt that they may have. But I wouldn't hold my breath on that last one.
I understand your sentiment and respect your desire to remain balanced on this, it´s helpful, however if you look at the transponder data and track the ¨Rescue¨ ships, it is unsurprising that so many of of the economic migrants are attempting the journey.

They can all travel to the nearest European embassy (there are lots in the middle east and africa) and apply for asylum there and it will be reviewed there, they don´t need to attempt to travel before applying and that they do so gives way to the implication that they intend to disregard international and national laws in order to get what they want.

What the rescue ships should be doing, supported by international and maritime law is taking the passengers back tot he nearest safe port. They are not doing that, they are bringing them all the way across the Med which is the most dangerous part of the journey (not anymore).

¨Lifeline¨ the ship is flying the Dutch flag but is not registered in the Netherlands (according to the Dutch).

The operators of this ship and not driven by some sort of monetary incentive from the other people traffickers, it´s worse than that, they are driven by an ideology.
 
#31
These ghost ships, pirates, whatever we want to call those overloaded death traps flying someone else's flags, are deliberately overloading, and may be flouting international conventions afaics. They're probably complicit with human smugglers operating in Libya. But that's alright, because they're international rescue heroes working in solidarity. Where did we hear that word before.

However, if there's more solidarity and efficiency, including common sense, in the people trafficking and booming rescue business than there is in European states and cooperation: the free taxi services will keep going for millions of refugees and economic migrants.

Let's be honest, some of these activists would sell their own mother. Vessels are deliberately creating crises in the knowledge that some mug will let them dock with their illicit cargoes, and finish their dirty work. In that case, offending vessels should be seized, emptied and sunk.
 
#33
Just get the Russian Navy to police the waters. For all their faults, the Russians don't fcuk about with this kind of thing.
 
#36
Before and during WW2, refugees were grievously abused. Britain and other countries rejected boat loads of Jews who were returned to Germany for a terrible fate at the hands of Germans.

The legislation and practices implemented after the war were intended to assuage the guilt of the belligerents, as much as to protect the safety of the innocents who are inevitably the true victims of war.

Like plenty of other human rights legislation, refugee law is being milked by shysters, and not just dodgy lawyers. The black economy welcomes otherwise unemployable foreigners who will work in car washes and takeaways for next to nothing. Our burgeoning sex industry welcomes young, foreign women with open legs rather than arms. Cynical, left wing politicians welcome an influx of destitute voters who will vote for whoever promises them benefits while idealists spout bollox about vibrant diversity.

Migration on a huge scale is now a fact of life. Very little of it involves refugees. Very little of it involves terrorists. Most of it involves people who just want a better life. Western countries don't have the resources to offer that many people a better life, particularly the vast majority who will be net recipients of public spending for their entire lives.

As others have said, learn from the Australians. Anybody arriving in Australia without a visa is detained until their immigration status is proved. Many are detained offshore. Those whose claims for refugee status are successful are resettled in safe but poor Cambodia. The obligation to refugees is to make them safe, not to make them rich. This has vastly reduced illegal immigration into Australia.

There are plenty of islands in the Med that would make excellent "refugee" camps. Sun, sea, sand, tents, who could complain? Similarly there are plenty of abandoned, Cold War military bases on Scottish islands. Many of them have runways and accommodation blocks still standing. Cloud, hail, cold and anthrax- welcome to Britain.

The immigration system throughout Europe is failing badly. Countries that are supposedly part of a single Europe are too busy passing the buck to solve this. Even in the UK, TV shows demonstrating munters in XXXXXXXL body armour scaring the shite out of workers in Chinese restaurants that they raid are mainly for show - the government pays part of the production cost.

If ever there was a problem that should bring Europe together to find a common solution, immigration is it. Instead, the EU is concerned with private cheese storage and the eurosausage (I know, I know). Time for the UK to secure the borders and deal with our own problems - and that includes any attempt by the EU to offload immigrants into the UK before Brexit.
 
#37
Before and during WW2, refugees were grievously abused. Britain and other countries rejected boat loads of Jews who were returned to Germany for a terrible fate at the hands of Germans.

The legislation and practices implemented after the war were intended to assuage the guilt of the belligerents, as much as to protect the safety of the innocents who are inevitably the true victims of war.

Like plenty of other human rights legislation, refugee law is being milked by shysters, and not just dodgy lawyers. The black economy welcomes otherwise unemployable foreigners who will work in car washes and takeaways for next to nothing. Our burgeoning sex industry welcomes young, foreign women with open legs rather than arms. Cynical, left wing politicians welcome an influx of destitute voters who will vote for whoever promises them benefits while idealists spout bollox about vibrant diversity.

Migration on a huge scale is now a fact of life. Very little of it involves refugees. Very little of it involves terrorists. Most of it involves people who just want a better life. Western countries don't have the resources to offer that many people a better life, particularly the vast majority who will be net recipients of public spending for their entire lives.

As others have said, learn from the Australians. Anybody arriving in Australia without a visa is detained until their immigration status is proved. Many are detained offshore. Those whose claims for refugee status are successful are resettled in safe but poor Cambodia. The obligation to refugees is to make them safe, not to make them rich. This has vastly reduced illegal immigration into Australia.

There are plenty of islands in the Med that would make excellent "refugee" camps. Sun, sea, sand, tents, who could complain? Similarly there are plenty of abandoned, Cold War military bases on Scottish islands. Many of them have runways and accommodation blocks still standing. Cloud, hail, cold and anthrax- welcome to Britain.

The immigration system throughout Europe is failing badly. Countries that are supposedly part of a single Europe are too busy passing the buck to solve this. Even in the UK, TV shows demonstrating munters in XXXXXXXL body armour scaring the shite out of workers in Chinese restaurants that they raid are mainly for show - the government pays part of the production cost.

If ever there was a problem that should bring Europe together to find a common solution, immigration is it. Instead, the EU is concerned with private cheese storage and the eurosausage (I know, I know). Time for the UK to secure the borders and deal with our own problems - and that includes any attempt by the EU to offload immigrants into the UK before Brexit.

A fair assessment but there is more support for this type of economic migration within europe that we may think. Merkel for example seems genuinely unsure why so many people are up in arms about it.

Allowing these NGO people trafficking ships to operate as they are undermines the legal system and sovereignty of european nations.

I read in the BBC today that in which they defend the NGO´s by saying that all they are doing is taking the at risk ¨refugee´s¨ to the nearest port, which are usually in Italy. That is patently untrue, Italy is on the otherside of an Ocean.
 
#38
A fair assessment but there is more support for this type of economic migration within europe that we may think. Merkel for example seems genuinely unsure why so many people are up in arms about it.
On a few occasions I've heard Chancellor Merkel say that Germany must repay its debt to Europe for the Second World War. I believe she lived in the East until the wall came down. She would have been exposed to large amounts of communist propaganda regarding Nazi atrocities. She appears to be buying off her own guilt with her citizens' money.

Allowing these NGO people trafficking ships to operate as they are undermines the legal system and sovereignty of european nations.
People trafficking is exactly what this is. I read that the rubber boats full of migrants go a short distance off shore then, still in cell phone range, call the relevant charity in Italy for one of their "rescue" boats to be picked up. The migrant boats are not in distress, no mayday is broadcast and there is no risk to life. It's simply a rendezvous at sea. Hence the Italians can legally deny them entry.

I read in the BBC today that in which they defend the NGO´s by saying that all they are doing is taking the at risk ¨refugee´s¨ to the nearest port, which are usually in Italy. That is patently untrue, Italy is on the otherside of an Ocean.
I think they can't legally return them to Libya due to the state the country is in. As the Italians say, Malta is often the closest port. Because they haven't been rescued, the migrants have no more right of entry to a Maltese port than cruise ship passengers would have a right of entry to a North Korean port.

This is growing into a bigger and bigger mess. To stop it, the European authorities will have to stop the incentives that cause people to risk their lives in unseaworthy inflatables. Stop the NGOs providing a free taxi service. Stop allowing immigrants to settle on mainland Europe. Stop the welfare benefits. Stop the free housing. Stop irregular work being available. Do this and the problem will stop.
 
#39
On a few occasions I've heard Chancellor Merkel say that Germany must repay its debt to Europe for the Second World War. I believe she lived in the East until the wall came down. She would have been exposed to large amounts of communist propaganda regarding Nazi atrocities. She appears to be buying off her own guilt with her citizens' money.



People trafficking is exactly what this is. I read that the rubber boats full of migrants go a short distance off shore then, still in cell phone range, call the relevant charity in Italy for one of their "rescue" boats to be picked up. The migrant boats are not in distress, no mayday is broadcast and there is no risk to life. It's simply a rendezvous at sea. Hence the Italians can legally deny them entry.



I think they can't legally return them to Libya due to the state the country is in. As the Italians say, Malta is often the closest port. Because they haven't been rescued, the migrants have no more right of entry to a Maltese port than cruise ship passengers would have a right of entry to a North Korean port.

This is growing into a bigger and bigger mess. To stop it, the European authorities will have to stop the incentives that cause people to risk their lives in unseaworthy inflatables. Stop the NGOs providing a free taxi service. Stop allowing immigrants to settle on mainland Europe. Stop the welfare benefits. Stop the free housing. Stop irregular work being available. Do this and the problem will stop.

There speaketh the voice of common sense; however, to your archetypal leftie SJW (who seem to be on the ascendancy in European politics, stand fast Italy) what you propose in bold above is akin to building large camps in Poland and revving up the cattle trucks. That's just the way they view it.

An expression I heard recently, which seems to fit the bill perfectly, is "No-Border-Extremists", ie those who believe so vehemently in their cause of globalisation and us-all-living-together-peacefully, and free yurts for all, and unicorns etc etc etc, that any dissent or actions contrary to the perceived wisdom are nothing more than fascism.
 
#40
On a few occasions I've heard Chancellor Merkel say that Germany must repay its debt to Europe for the Second World War. I believe she lived in the East until the wall came down. She would have been exposed to large amounts of communist propaganda regarding Nazi atrocities. She appears to be buying off her own guilt with her citizens' money.



People trafficking is exactly what this is. I read that the rubber boats full of migrants go a short distance off shore then, still in cell phone range, call the relevant charity in Italy for one of their "rescue" boats to be picked up. The migrant boats are not in distress, no mayday is broadcast and there is no risk to life. It's simply a rendezvous at sea. Hence the Italians can legally deny them entry.



I think they can't legally return them to Libya due to the state the country is in. As the Italians say, Malta is often the closest port. Because they haven't been rescued, the migrants have no more right of entry to a Maltese port than cruise ship passengers would have a right of entry to a North Korean port.

This is growing into a bigger and bigger mess. To stop it, the European authorities will have to stop the incentives that cause people to risk their lives in unseaworthy inflatables. Stop the NGOs providing a free taxi service. Stop allowing immigrants to settle on mainland Europe. Stop the welfare benefits. Stop the free housing. Stop irregular work being available. Do this and the problem will stop.
Whats interesting is the EU is spending money training the Libyan coast guard to prevent these inflatables getting into international waters.

There's clearly a flaw in this plan as there's either not enough Libyan coastguard, the Libyans are bending the rules or lastly in cahoots with the NGO ships.

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