Michael Collins

sirbhp

LE
Book Reviewer
Recently I have had cause to research Michael Collins as my old IRA grand dad his wife and sister in Law went to his funeral ( so did about a fifth of the population of Eire at that time ! ) . By the way they ended up on different sides in the civil war.

De valera said that the true extent of Collins expertise in the gaining of Irish Independence would be well reported in the future at the expense of his (de valera ) reputation . He was correct.
THIS week I watched a documentary history of the security services the forerunners of MI 6 , it was stated that when the security service was set up in around 1932 that it was modeled on the Michael Collins set up during the tan war.

What does the team think? In the light of hindsight and historic revelations was Collins a nation builder and who, if anyone , in the Modern IRA , of all species, could be the future hero. ?

I'm putting this up with the aim of some sensible military debate not the "kill the Irish pigs" type of replies after all I seem to recall that in the 1970s / 80s that we felt that 'Our terrorists were the best in the world' and by direct correlation that meant that our troops must also be the best in the world .
Off you go .
 

AlienFTM

MIA
Book Reviewer
He was an unsung hero, up there alone in the Command Module while Armstrong and Aldrin were becoming legends.
 
...THIS week I watched a documentary history of the security services the forerunners of MI 6 , it was stated that when the security service was set up in around 1932 that it was modeled on the Michael Collins set up during the tan war...
Both The Security Service (MI5) and Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) originated in the Secret Service Bureau which was itself formed in 1909, so that's a somewhat dubious claim.

Regards,
MM
 
Not sure if that's correct ref MI6 being based on Collins ideas. SiS Origins lie with the SSB which existed prior to ww1.
 
Iirc, the British effort against the IRA in the Anglo - Irish War was hindered by, among other things, secretaries at Dublin Castle supplying Collins with a lot of information about the identity and place of residence of counter-IRA agents, planned Army operations, etc. In that sense, Collins' Int system didn't need to be amazing, just better than ours. I don't know about the other info you mentioned so will have to read up on that.
Collins kept the IRA motivated when their reserves of energy were low, and in adversity. Collins reportedly said, when the ceasefire was agreed, that the IRA was only days away from outright defeat.
Collins was, imo, right to back the Treaty as it was the first step in delivering independence for Ireland. His fighting off the anti-treaty challenge saved the treaty, albeit at great cost to the IRA, Ireland, and to Collins personally (before his death).
I am not sure if anyone in PIRA is of Collins' stature.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor

diverman

LE
Book Reviewer
Both The Security Service (MI5) and Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) originated in the Secret Service Bureau which was itself formed in 1909, so that's a somewhat dubious claim.

Regards,
MM
What bureaus and MI designations, they didn't come out of the closet until a few years ago, they offically didn't exist.;)
 

sirbhp

LE
Book Reviewer
Not sure if that's correct ref MI6 being based on Collins ideas. SiS Origins lie with the SSB which existed prior to ww1.
I can only say that it said in the documentary that they followed his structure im not saying its true but it could be .
 
This link may be of some use, has quite a bit on intelligence etc including how Collins set up his networks in the Telegraph, rail and postal systems and mentions of his most valuable contacts within Dublin Castle, Detective Ned Broy of the DMP.

 
Collins was a soldier, De Vallera was a politician.
I know which one I think would have made the better Taoiseach.

“To me the task is a loathsome one. I go, I go in the spirit of a soldier who acts against his best judgement at the orders of his superior.” – Michael Collins on being sent to the Treaty negotiations by De Valera.
 
Sight historical drift, a few years ago the Irish Army restored one of the Rolls Royce Armoured Cars that were given to them at the end of WW1.
Its the Roller who's Vickers jammed, that was escorting MC when he was ambushed and killed.
End drift.
 
Iirc, the British effort against the IRA in the Anglo - Irish War was hindered by, among other things, secretaries at Dublin Castle supplying Collins with a lot of information about the identity and place of residence of counter-IRA agents, planned Army operations, etc. In that sense, Collins' Int system didn't need to be amazing, just better than ours. I don't know about the other info you mentioned so will have to read up on that.
Collins kept the IRA motivated when their reserves of energy were low, and in adversity. Collins reportedly said, when the ceasefire was agreed, that the IRA was only days away from outright defeat.
Collins was, imo, right to back the Treaty as it was the first step in delivering independence for Ireland. His fighting off the anti-treaty challenge saved the treaty, albeit at great cost to the IRA, Ireland, and to Collins personally (before his death).
I am not sure if anyone in PIRA is of Collins' stature.
At the time, he couldn't say that the IRA was within a hair's breadth of defeat, he was obliged to put out the 'We're winning' version, regardless of the evidence to the contrary. Signing the treaty would have been the only possible option, if you knew of the "days away from outright defeat" situation. If you believed the 'We're winning' version, signing the treaty was a huge betrayal. He was a victim of his own propaganda.
 

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