MH17: Russia liable for downing airliner over Ukraine

YarS said:
The UK and the USA.
More @YarS lies. Since when have the UK and US broken the territorial integrity of Ukraine?
 
Tell me a nation that has signed the Budapest Memorandum and ignores it
None, but I would draw attention to the point, that in international terms the facts are usually seen to change, when the signatories change policies towards each other.... Poland for instance signed a 10 year pact with hitler and it was effectively abrogated by Poland, when it accepted guarantees from the UK/France in March 38 and they lost some of the moral high when they exploited the fall of Czechoslovakia over Teschen. I am not besmirching my old grandfathers home, its just a simple fact.

The Ukraine changed its policy towards Russia and rather than sit down, it chose to think no repercussions would accrue. That is naïve and frankly a bit silly.
 
You don't think Russia ignores it? That the UK and US ignore it? That says a lot.... I think you need to read it personally
but I would draw attention to the point, that in international terms the facts are usually seen to change, when the signatories change policies towards each other.... Poland for instance signed a 10 year pact with hitler and it was effectively abrogated by Poland, when it accepted guarantees from the UK/France in March 38 and they lost some of the moral high when they exploited the fall of Czechoslovakia over Teschen. I am not besmirching my old grandfathers home, its just a simple fact.
Which terms of the memorandum did Ukraine change in their policies? Did it say they shouldn't be 'western leaning' and remove the shackles of Russian oppression?
The Ukraine changed its policy towards Russia and rather than sit down, it chose to think no repercussions would accrue. That is naïve and frankly a bit silly.
Where in the memorandum does it say they can't be 'western leaning'?
 
You don't think Russia ignores it? That the UK and US ignore it? That says a lot.... I think you need to read it personally

Which terms of the memorandum did Ukraine change in their policies? Did it say they shouldn't be 'western leaning' and remove the shackles of Russian oppression?

Where in the memorandum does it say they can't be 'western leaning'?
I expect the Russians signed the treaty because the primary goal was to denuclearise and I expect the EU founded a year before the treaty, nobody would have expected its expansion at the rate we have seen or the expansion of NATO alongside it...

History is replete with treaties, leagues and alliances where facts change and one or more signatories cry foul. You and others, cling to the words and deny Russia a hearing, when they act unilaterally, you are shocked.
 
I expect the Russians signed the treaty because the primary goal was to denuclearise and I expect the EU founded a year before the treaty, nobody would have expected its expansion at the rate we have seen or the expansion of NATO alongside it...
Which doesn’t absolve Russia from failing to comply with the treaty. You clearly believe their agitprop about NATO expansion when there was no formal accord.
History is replete with treaties, leagues and alliances where facts change and one or more signatories cry foul.
Indeed it is, Russia having a habit of breaking them
You and others, cling to the words and deny Russia a hearing, when they act unilaterally, you are shocked.
You mean we should listen to their agitprop and accept they will ignore the treaties they’ve signed?

No wonder your previous accounts were deleted and you whined to the COs that you weren’t a Russian troll.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
More @YarS lies. Since when have the UK and US broken the territorial integrity of Ukraine?
They didn't broken territorial integrity of Ukraine, but pro-West militants used weapon against Ukrainian officials on Maidan. It is violation of Budapesht treaty, too. First Ukrainian blood (in that turn) was on your side.
 
YarS said:
They didn't broken territorial integrity of Ukraine,
They haven't broken the treaty then as you say. As I said, more @YarS lies
YarS said:
but pro-West militants used weapon against Ukrainian officials on Maidan. It is violation of Budapesht treaty, too. First Ukrainian blood (in that turn) was on your side.
Really? You're going to believe your agitprop about 'NATO sodomite snipers'? Is that cell between your ears feeling lonely?
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
You'll have to remind us of when it was during the last 25 years that we invaded Ukraine (or Kaz/Belarus), as I'm struggling to remember when it happened.
Read text of agreement, sonny.
"
According to the memorandum, Russia, the US, and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:

  1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty and the existing borders.
  2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
  3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
  4. Seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine, "if Belarus/Kazakhstan/Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
  5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
  6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments."

Usage of pro-West militants on Maidan was:
a) unrespect of Ukrainian Sovereignty and interventiin in its inner politic;
b) usage of force against Ukraine.
 
By "pro-Western militants", do you mean people supporting the legitimate government of Ukraine?
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Really? You're going to believe your agitprop about 'NATO sodomite snipers'? Is that cell between your ears feeling lonely?
I dont know which snipers were there (highly likely - Juntas), but there is more than enough facts of usage of weapon (including knobs and Molotov coctails) by pro-West militants, feeded, raised, trained and supported by Westies (including USA and UK).
 
YarS said:
I dont know which snipers were there (highly likely - Juntas), but there is more than enough facts of usage of weapon (including knobs and Molotov coctails) by pro-West militants (feeded, raised, trained and supported) by Westies (including USA and UK).
You really do believe your own agitprop :)

You’ll have a credible source on supplying the kit, feeding, training etc. the protesters no doubt? Where is it? Or is it ’highly likely’ more @YarS lies?

More obfuscation away from the 53rd AA Bde and their BUK TELAR
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
You’ll have a credible source on supplying the kit, feeding, training etc. the protesters no doubt? Where is it? Or is it ’highly likely’ more @YarS lies?
Bla-bla-bla. Typical British 'denie everything' policy.

We both can start to post and criticise "proves" of Russian and West support of their proxies in Ukraine, including official Eurobudget and official programs like "Eastern Partnership" or we can skip it, and agree that both Russia and the USA (with EU) have their own proxies and discuss about how successful was (and will be) its usage.
 
YarS said:
Read text of agreement, sonny.
"
According to the memorandum, Russia, the US, and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:

  1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty and the existing borders.
  2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
  3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
  4. Seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine, "if Belarus/Kazakhstan/Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
  5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
  6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments."

Usage of pro-West militants on Maidan was:
a) unrespect of Ukrainian Sovereignty and interventiin in its inner politic;
b) usage of force against Ukraine.
You can't even get the Treaty right:
https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/atf/cf/{65BFCF9B-6D27-4E9C-8CD3-CF6E4FF96FF9}/s_1994_1399.pdf

1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;

2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind;

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;


5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State;

6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Would that be the president who was unanimously voted out of office by parliament?
It was not unanimiusly, it was under barrels of AK's of 'peaceful protesters', and it was anti-Constitutial.
Anyway, first usage of force by pro-West militants was long before Yanokovich leaved Ukraine.
 

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