MH17: Russia liable for downing airliner over Ukraine

What about the Libyan rebels, prior to the civil war, we had been supplying them support in the early nineties, then decided they were terrorists after the blair deal and even sent one back to be tortured.

I completely agree both sides abide by Minsk 2, but something needs to happen before that. Because, to back down would see him lose face and like I said, the next one might be worse than the present one. (regime change has shown itself to be a complete failure).

I agree its destabilising, maple probably knows more than me, but the Ukraine has a look of a country that needs time to heel wounds.

Army of the dead, oh come on that is just a bit of bravado. I remember, the cult of the Wehrmacht back in my BAOR days, or even modern day biker iconography.
You seem to be suggesting that illegal annexations of other's territory to be accepted as a fait accompli.
 
It is a sad indictment of the Kremlin, that it feels it absolutely necessary to spend so much time and effort trying to defend the “Muscovite Mentality” on forums such as this. Up to and including this rather too earnest black flag sock-puppet, whose cover story is so easily seen through.
 
What about the Libyan rebels, prior to the civil war, we had been supplying them support in the early nineties, then decided they were terrorists after the blair deal and even sent one back to be tortured.

I completely agree both sides abide by Minsk 2, but something needs to happen before that. Because, to back down would see him lose face and like I said, the next one might be worse than the present one. (regime change has shown itself to be a complete failure).

I agree its destabilising, maple probably knows more than me, but the Ukraine has a look of a country that needs time to heel wounds.

Army of the dead, oh come on that is just a bit of bravado. I remember, the cult of the Wehrmacht back in my BAOR days, or even modern day biker iconography.
Rarely do you find a piece of "whataboutery" that actually starts with the words "What about..."
How very retro.
 
D

Deleted 154930

Guest
Your point was we called them nasty words. Which nasty words did we call them?

Could be worse, could be better, could be the same. Vlad has six more years.

Exactly, so they should stop supporting the rebels

He said it, not me. I just laugh at the untrained chimp
We called the Libyan Government worse than shoite and Gadaffi was a murderer in the UK, after the London incident. But, managed to do a deal with them, which would reinforce your point about NOT dealing with bad people. Similarly with PIRA, evil bstards, one minute, then I am getting lectured off millenials how they are fond of Sinn Fein. Its all just WORDS.

Your right on that point. As you've guessed my entire focus is, yes Putin is a goon, Russia is on a knife edge because of putins policies and if he suddenly went, THAT IS MY CONCERN.
 
We called the Libyan Government worse than shoite and Gadaffi was a murderer in the UK, after the London incident. But, managed to do a deal with them, which would reinforce your point about NOT dealing with bad people. Similarly with PIRA, evil bstards, one minute, then I am getting lectured off millenials how they are fond of Sinn Fein. Its all just WORDS.
Nobody has said don’t negotiate. Just bending down and taking Russian sausage.

I’m not sure we said Gaddaffi was a Junta and Nazi’s were in charge. Do you have a source? More often than not its words like ‘dispicable regime’ etc.
Your right on that point. As you've guessed my entire focus is, yes Putin is a goon, Russia is on a knife edge because of putins policies and if he suddenly went, THAT IS MY CONCERN.
If he goes, they may get someone nicer, worse or the same. That’s politics and depends how he goes. He’s there for six more years and has shown little willingness to negotiate unless it’s to his (whole?) advantage. I don’t believe Ukraine or anybody else can trust him.

I note your concerns on losing Putin.
 
D

Deleted 154930

Guest
Nobody has said don’t negotiate. Just bending down and taking Russian sausage.

I’m not sure we said Gaddaffi was a Junta and Nazi’s were in charge. Do you have a source? More often than not its words like ‘dispicable regime’ etc.

If he goes, they may get someone nicer, worse or the same. That’s politics and depends how he goes. He’s there for six more years and has shown little willingness to negotiate unless it’s to his (whole?) advantage. I don’t believe Ukraine or anybody else can trust him.

I note your concerns on losing Putin.
Gadaffis own embassy in London, dropped a WPC during a demo. So, that regime was more than just despicable, but criminal. Roll forward a few years and Blair and the British Government are on there knees. I largely lost what little respect I had for our government after incidents like that.
 
Gadaffis own embassy in London, dropped a WPC during a demo. So, that regime was more than just despicable, but criminal. Roll forward a few years and Blair and the British Government are on there knees. I largely lost what little respect I had for our government after incidents like that.
Selective view of history there.
Libya and Gaddafi had been sanctioned up to the eyeballs for decades, because of its criminal and warmongering revolutionary activity.
In 2001 post 9/11, the Bush regime basically sent a "disarm or die" ultimatum.
By 2003 Libya had surrendered most of its WMD stockpiles, and as a reward, a lot of sanctions were lifted.
A lot of big oil business had been queuing up to get into Libya for years.
 
Gadaffis own embassy in London, dropped a WPC during a demo.
I remember WPC Yvonne Fletcher’s death very well thanks.
So, that regime was more than just despicable, but criminal.
Not a Junta or Nazi’s though. Both emotive words
GRoll forward a few years and Blair and the British Government are on there knees. I largely lost what little respect I had for our government after incidents like that.
I’m not sure I had any respect for the Blair govt at all. I might agree with some decisions but I never fell for the snake oil salesman

It still doesn’t address the point though. Either that or your ‘whataboutery’ is scoring a big fat Freddie.
 
Last edited:
That depends on what you mean by ‘benefits’ surely? By ‘benefits’ Putin was ‘elected’ again. Same people in his inner circle. He still hosts a major international sporting trophy. He and his cronies are still rich beyond most people’s wildest dreams. Russia is still P5. It still has allies. It still vetoes investigations into CW use by allies. It still behaves the same way if not more so. What more does he want?
He wants London and Oslo, and, sure, Africa, too. But closest task are Minsk and Kiev. Reunion of the Russian lands is one of his dreams, as he is cosplaying St. Vladimir.
They’d love the international community to recognise Crimea. They may even say they’d stop supporting the separatists to get this. However, as you mention above trust, would you trust the current leadership in this?
He will stop supporting the separatists only if Timoshenko will won and sold him whole Ukraine for the good price. But then EU and NATO will start supporting West Ukrainian separatists.
 
He will stop supporting the separatists only if Timoshenko will won and sold him whole Ukraine for the good price. But then EU and NATO will start supporting West Ukrainian separatists.
Seeing as Tymoshenko wants to join the EU, wants to join NATO and wants the occupied territories of Crimea and Donbas back under Ukrainian control, I don’t believe she will ‘sell him whole Ukraine’:
Crimea and Donbas will be returned to Ukraine – we have to fight for this
Batkivshchyna Party leader Yulia Tymoshenko believes the return of temporarily occupied territories – Crimea and Donbas – should happen through negotiations based on the Budapest memorandum and is something Ukraine must urgently do.

“Every Ukrainian, and I as a Ukrainian, will not be calm until Crimea and Donbas are returned to Ukraine. This negotiation process should be held on the basis of the Budapest memorandum on the level of leaders of these nations,” Yulia Tymoshenko said during a Facebook video conference.

“Everyone who gave Ukraine guarantees of the inviolability of our borders in the Budapest memorandum should together with us raise the democratic world to create a development fund for the occupied territories,” she added.

The politician also believes more pressure and sanctions are needed against the aggressor country – Russia – and that Ukraine needs a strong army.

“We need a strong army so that nobody event thinks of encroaching on Ukrainian territory,” the politician said.

Yulia Tymoshenko also called for the creation of an international fund for the rebirth and development of Donbas.

“We have to start negotiations on the creation of an international fund for the rebirth and development of Donbas even before the presidential election. I am convinced that we will also return Crimea,” the politician said.

She said that millions of Ukrainians who left their homes and fled occupied territories need special support, which the government is not providing on the proper level.

“We Ukrainians are one family, and we have to take care of everyone,” the parliamentarian added.
 
Both parties need to agree a deal. Both have signed up to Minsk 2. Both need to implement it.
Yes. Question is only in the details. German and France should force Ukraine for federalisation, Russia should force DPR and LPR don't attack rest of Ukraine.
Why? What does Putin gain? The only way it will be confirmed is if the FSB archives are opened if Putin has a ‘Winter Palace’ moment.
We see, that Netherlands make just a poor imitation of investigation, based on unconfirmed and edited videos from YouTube. Why they dont want to do real investigation? For one, answer is obvious - they know, that MH17 was hit by Ukrainian missile. So, if Timoshenko will won - she will give the real proves and the real criminals.
Seeing as Tymoshenko wants to join the EU, wants to join NATO and wants the occupied territories of Crimea and Donbas back under Ukrainian control, I don’t believe she will ‘sell him whole Ukraine’:
She wants nothing but money. And Putin can suggest more of it. Did you hear her last speech?
 
Last edited:
Yes. Question is only in the details. German and France should force Ukraine for federalisation, Russia should force DPR and LPR don't attack rest of Ukraine.
Is that what Minsk 2 says?
We see, that Netherlands make just a poor imitation of investigation, based on unconfirmed and edited videos from YouTube. Why they dont want to do real investigation? For one, answer is obvious - they know, that MH17 was hit by Ukrainian missile. So, if Timoshenko will won - she will give real
MH17 was hit by a BUK missile fired from a TELAR of the Russian 53rd AA Regt
She wants nothing but money. And Putin can suggest more of it. Did you hear her last speech?
Nope. But then I speak neither Ukrainian or Russian. She’s fit so a few coins going her way doesn’t bother me
 
Last edited:
Yes. Question is only in the details. German and France should force Ukraine for federalisation, Russia should force DPR and LPR don't attack rest of Ukraine.

We see, that Netherlands make just a poor imitation of investigation, based on unconfirmed and edited videos from YouTube. Why they dont want to do real investigation? For one, answer is obvious - they know, that MH17 was hit by Ukrainian missile. So, if Timoshenko will won - she will give the real proves and the real criminals.
She wants nothing but money. And Putin can suggest more of it. Did you hear her last speech?
Hmmm...fractured English, and another one peddling the Phantom Ukrainian BUK line.

Another Russian troll.
 
D

Deleted 154930

Guest
I remember WPC Yvonne Fletcher’s death very well thanks.

Not a Junta or Nazi’s though. Both emotive words

I’m not sure I had any respect for the Blair govt at all. I might agree with some decisions but I never fell for the snake oil salesman

It still doesn’t address the point though. Either that or your ‘whataboutery’ is scoring a big fat Freddie.
Hardly whataboutery if your asking me for it.
 
Is that what Minsk 2 says?
Yes.
MH17 was hit by a BUK missile fired from a TELAR of the Russian 53rd AA Regt
Surely no. If it was so, Netherlands did proper investigation - with data from Ukrainian Army, Ukrainian flight control, USA sattelite data, and so on. But they preffer to gather YouTube rubbish (may be, made by Ukres or Yanks).
I mean, you can easily find there even video about Earthings invasion on Pandora.
 
Hardly whataboutery if your asking me for it.
I said Russia was using emotive language such as Junta and Nazi’s. Your ‘whataboutery’ then came back with Libyan rebels and Ghaddafi. Neither of which were called Junta and Nazi’s by the U.K. govt unless you have a source?
 
Nope. Try Ukraine’s borders, pullout of all foreign troops, verified ceasefires and withdrawal of heavy weapons before elections.

Constitutional reform three years ago which shows how long this has been going on.
Surely no. If it was so, Netherlands did proper investigation - with data from Ukrainian Army, Ukrainian flight control, USA sattelite data, and so on. But they preffer to gather YouTube rubbish (may be, made by Ukres or Yanks).
Surely yes. Bellingcat said it years ago based on open source info. The JIT have confirmed that finding using all of the info available to them and cross referencing that info
I mean, you can easily find there even video about Earthings invasion on Pandora.
Hallo YarS my old Orc. How are you?
 
D

Deleted 154930

Guest
I said Russia was using emotive language such as Junta and Nazi’s. Your ‘whataboutery’ then came back with Libyan rebels and Ghaddafi. Neither of which were called Junta and Nazi’s by the U.K. govt unless you have a source?
Gadaffi was a third way socialist and arab nationalist, making him a very confused boy and he evolved into a classical personality cult. The words Junta and Nazi are pejoratively associated with the right.

The Ukranians of the 40s were fascist and the Serbs made the same commentary about the Croats. Both those countries during there change of government/independence, relied to an extent on the muscle that comes from those types of people. They may have faded away, but its a good attack line if you were a PR man.

You are desperate to win a propaganda war with them, but your preaching to the wrong people and fighting battles the Russians have already won. If you want to beat Russia, give there people a new vision of prosperity away from putin.
 

Similar threads


Latest Threads

Top