MH17: Russia liable for downing airliner over Ukraine

No problem. Just accept Ukraine into NATO and unleash Crimean war v2.0.
Though ... even Gavin the Kid understands how it would end.

Oh, Bolshy Sergei is on line this morning.
Almost as childish and spiteful a Putinist fanboi as YarS.

This is the next stage of Russian textbook response " Yeah. So wha?
They are all dead now, and no one is going to do anything about it"

You seem to think that this going to go away.
No, Liar. It isn't.
 
In these cases where you are dealing with lying boneheaded Russian troll retards it’s always helpful to remember that

‘East is East, West is Best’
 
No problem. Just accept Ukraine into NATO and unleash Crimean war v2.0.
Though ... even Gavin the Kid understands how it would end.
How?

With Russia being wiped of the face of the earth by the Donald? He is itching to bomb somebody, may as well be Russia eh?

MB
 
It is a very hard thing to debate with people that don't understand or pretend not to understand English language.
So I repeat my point.
1. In similar (to MH17) cases happened previously there were no any international trials or tribunals. There were no any demands to stage such trials or tribunals. So I make a conclusion. In the case with MH17 there will be no any international trial or tribunal. It could create very dangerous (for the USA, for Israel) precedent.
2. Legal liability (no matter what side is responsible) will not be recognized just because it was not recognized previously in similar cases.

As for 'evidence' then one could call allegations as 'evidence' thousands times but allegations will remain merely allegations.

I propose you to present your counter arguments
1. Say why MH17 tribunal should be established?
2. Why in this case legal liability should be recognized?
I'm fully aware of what you are trying to debate.

For me it's not worthwhile as it just seems with your history on this you would just wish to do your usual espousing of 'either the scenarios fit the known facts or precedents and geopolitical reasons' style of discourse to show why a trial couldn't or wouldn't go ahead. It's useless.

The JIT has concluded that there's strong evidence Russia was involved in the shoot down. No matter how hard you try and present alternative scenarios the report is compelling and demands a serious search for justice.

How or whether this will happen? Not sure.

But I do know that Russia will argue and squirm against it and you will likely support their squirming.

But also in addition, and as @HectortheInspector has also pointed out, the situation here is different to the other examples you cited. In east Ukraine Russia is actively fomenting and supporting a supposedly separatist movement as part of Russia's plan. The shoot down wasn't a one off accident.
 
D

Deleted 154930

Guest
I'm fully aware of what you are trying to debate.

For me it's not worthwhile as it just seems with your history on this you would just wish to do your usual espousing of 'either the scenarios fit the known facts or precedents and geopolitical reasons' style of discourse to show why a trial couldn't or wouldn't go ahead. It's useless.

The JIT has concluded that there's strong evidence Russia was involved in the shoot down. No matter how hard you try and present alternative scenarios the report is compelling and demands a serious search for justice.

How or whether this will happen? Not sure.

But I do know that Russia will argue and squirm against it and you will likely support their squirming.

But also in addition, and as @HectortheInspector has also pointed out, the situation here is different to the other examples you cited. In east Ukraine Russia is actively fomenting and supporting a supposedly separatist movement as part of Russia's plan. The shoot down wasn't a one off accident.
I am not on the ground and freely admit to a lack of knowledge; blundering in the last time, to an interesting thread. How much actual support, does the separatist movement have in the eastern Ukraine ?
 
But also in addition, and as @HectortheInspector has also pointed out, the situation here is different to the other examples you cited. (1) In east Ukraine Russia is actively fomenting and supporting a supposedly separatist movement as part of Russia's plan. (2) The shoot down wasn't a one off accident.
So you have made 2 points.
1) What unique do you see here? There is a lot of rebel, separatist movements in different countries. Some states support central governments and some others rebels/separatists. Look at Syria or Yemen. World powers use to supply rebels/separatists with arms, ammunition. Let's recall Iran-Contras affair, for example. It is not something exceptional. Washington even use its armed forces to support the rebels in Syria. NATO country Turkey supports separatists in Cyprus - the EU member. So I don't agree with you. Conflict in Donbass is not absolutely unique.
2) Elaborate please. Why it was not accident from your point of view? Do you reckon that MH17 was downed intentionally?
 
Last edited:
I am not on the ground and freely admit to a lack of knowledge; blundering in the last time, to an interesting thread. How much actual support, does the separatist movement have in the eastern Ukraine ?
While Moscow denies direct involvement and claims that all supplies are just humanitarian aid, I believe that the separatists have sound support, mostly indirect one. Some rich people (in Russia and Ukraine) spend own money and are compensated by profitable contracts by Moscow. The separatists have now compact (about 30,000) but well motivated and equipped armed forces formed mainly from locals. It should be noted that Donbass, its main cities Donetsk and Lugansk are industrial heartland with a lot of plants, factories, including military ones. Production of shells, cartrigies, small arms is not a problem. The separatists even recieve money from Kiev as Ukraine has to buy coal - from formal point of view Russian but in fact produced in separatist controlled area. Donbass has unique coal fields - one of the best quality in the world.
As for support of the separatists by local population then according to the Minsk agreemnts local elections had to be conducted in Donbass. But Kiev authorities suspect that they (their candidates) would not receive many votes. So the law about elections in Donbass has not been adopted by Ukrainian parliament. Donbass is predominantly Russian speaking region with profound historical ties with Russia.
 
Last edited:
So you have made 2 points.
1) What unique do you see here? There is a lot of rebel, separatist movements in different countries. Some states support central governments and some others rebels/separatists. Look at Syria or Yemen. World powers use to supply rebels/separatists with arms, ammunition. Let's recall Iran-Contras affair, for example. It is not something exceptional. Washington even use its armed forces to support the rebels in Syria. NATO country Turkey supports separatists in Cyprus - the EU member. So I don't agree with you. Conflict in Donbass is not absolutely unique.
2) Elaborate please. Why it was not accident from youe point of view? Do you reckon that MH17 was downed intentionally?
Yadda Yadda
Whataboutery...Washington...

Still lying, Liar.
 
D

Deleted 154930

Guest
While Moscow denies direct involvement and claim that all supplies are just humanitarian aid, I believe that the separatists have sound support, mostly indirect one. Some rich people (in Russia and Ukraine) spend own money and are compensated by profitable contracts by Moscow. The separatists have now compact (about 30,000) but well motivated and equipped armed forces formed mainly from locals. It should be noted that Donbass, itsmain cities Donetsk and Lugansk are industrial heartland with a lot of plants, factories, including military ones. Production of shells, cartrigies, small arms is not a problem. The separatists even recieve money from Kiev as Ukraine has to buy coal - from formal point of view Russian but in fact produced in separatist controlled area. Donbass has unique coal fields - one of the best quality in the world.
I have a clue, about there military capabilities, I certainly dispute the origin of the logistics... I was actually curious to know about the population? how much do the people of eastern Ukraine, support the separatists ?
 
I am not on the ground and freely admit to a lack of knowledge; blundering in the last time, to an interesting thread. How much actual support, does the separatist movement have in the eastern Ukraine ?
As usual, it isn't 'black and white' contrary to what the 'propaganda dog' will spout.

Some of the newer data is on the thread here:
https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/how-will-the-ukraine-war-end.228912/
The older thread carrying on from the Crimea thread is here:
https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/chronicles-of-war-in-ukraine.213582/

Notice, both threads started by 'pro Russia' posters.

To actually have a referendum (they did hold one with 80+% in favour of independence, but not monitored by OSCE), there needs to be a ceasefire. To have a ceasefire means both sides need to respect it. It goes quiet every so often and then there's shelling, counter shelling etc.

As for support, prior to the seizure of Crimea, generally the east was 24-30% in favour of joining with Russia, whilst the western areas it was much lower. Obviously polls say one things, facts can state another: Press releases and reports - How relations between Ukraine and Russia should look like? Public opinion polls’ results

The Separatists much like the Ukraine govt have their ups and downs. Sometimes they seem to be in ascendancy, others not so much. It depends who is running that particular area. They have a bit of infighting and of course Moscow turns up and supports its favourite.

Minsk 2 is the current peace proposal. It all depends on whether both sides wish to implement it but the US has now given 'lethal aid' to Ukraine. Slowly, kicking and screaming after the years of endemic Soviet corruption, they are becoming something the EU thinks it can deal with. More fool them tbh. However, the alternatives of being 'a Poland' or returning to the Soviet Russian sphere will make people think. The other point is where would the 'peacekeepers' go? On the old Ukraine border? Or in Putin's Novorossiya?

Getting back to support. I'm sure the eastern regions are more in favour than they were in 2014 with the migration of pro and anti separatists. Whether that is over 50% can only be found by conducting internationally monitored elections. I can't see that happening any time soon. It's much more useful for Vlad to have another 'frozen conflict' he can return to at will.
 
I have a clue, about there military capabilities, I certainly dispute the origin of the logistics... I was actually curious to know about the population? how much do the people of eastern Ukraine, support the separatists ?
Let's read a random article in Western MSM
Can Ukraine win over pro-Russian citizens in the east—and finally end the war with separatists?
...wiry man in his 60s staggers down a potholed street, playing the accordion ...I chat with a group of Ukrainian government soldiers... “He’s an old separatist—I can tell a mile off. Small man, big gun.”
“But he’s only holding an accordion,” I say.
“He’s only holding an accordion now. But give him some money, and the first thing he’ll buy is an AK-47.”
Strained encounters like this are common here in Donbass, Ukraine’s easternmost region on the Russian border.
Locals frequently regard governmental forces as occupants as they speak Ukrainian in this almost purely Russian speaking region.
many in the east have more in common with their neighbors in Russia. Some in government-held Donbass see the Ukrainian soldiers patrolling the streets as guardians against the Kremlin’s machinations, but others regard them as part of an unwanted, even foreign, occupation.
The divisions in Donbass put Ukrainian lawmakers in a bind. Privately, some admit they would like to discard the territory, to jettison any hope of a unified nation. But losing the east could create more dysfunction and even encourage further uprisings, leading to more lost territory and a return to full-blown war.
Kiev authorities are extremely unpopular in Donbass and indeed it would be logical to give Donbass wide authonomy and forget about it. But there are other inportant mostly Russian speaking regions and the threat of domino effect is big.
To secure the region, the Ukrainian military and civilian activists are trying to win over their eastern compatriots who may secretly back the separatists. This effort has acquired a new sense of urgency; despite the recent U.S. airstrike in Syria, Kiev still fears the Trump administration could align itself with Russian President Vladimir Putin. In this volatile climate, Ukrainian troops are using classic hearts-and-minds tactics—like the ones the U.S. has tried in Iraq and Afghanistan—on their own soil.

The problem: Neither of those conflicts has turned out well.
Ukraine is one of the most poor countries in Europe and Kiev authorities merely haven't resources to 'win hearts and minds'. At the same time soon education in Ukraine will be only in Ukrainian. To have a job in police, in governmental structures, in public sector one has to know Ukrainian on a good level that is a problem for locals.
Toretsk, a town that’s a microcosm of the wider crisis. In 2014, separatists grabbed this coal-mining town, with a prewar population of around 35,000; Kiev’s troops retook it that summer. Today, it has some of the largest pro-separatist support in government-controlled Donbass. Even its former mayor, Vladimir Sleptsov, stands accused of assisting pro-Russian militants several years ago.
Ukraine’s army—plagued by years of corruption and neglect—could barely support its troops, let alone help the local population. This caused “much bitterness and disappointment in eastern Ukraine, where the fight for hearts and minds is crucial,” says Gustav Gressel, a senior policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations, a Berlin-based think tank.
Activists in Toretsk say the town is still run by a cabal of pro-separatists in Moscow’s thrall, despite the arrest of the former mayor. I ask another Civilian Military Cooperation officer, Captain Alexander Teslenko, how best to root out these individuals. Deadpan, he replies: “Slam their fingers in the door till they change.”
With such 'methods' it would be hard to win hearts and minds.
Despite living in Ukraine, many in Donbass still heavily identify with Moscow, and most speak Russian as their first language. Yet figures also show how this populace prizes its independence. As of the 2001 census—the only survey in post-Soviet Ukraine—more than half of Donetsk province’s inhabitants saw themselves as Ukrainian, but nearly 40 percent saw themselves as Russian, compared with 17.3 percent across the country.
Yet given their ties to Russia, it is natural for some in Donbass to look east, not west. And in the years since 1991, when Ukraine gained its independence from the USSR, industrial paralysis and subsequent war have left many to romanticize the old Soviet order. This puts them at odds with their western countrymen eager to join the European Union.
Kiev’s forces have made terrible mistakes during the war—including shelling civilian areas in botched attempts to dislodge their enemies
So far, Ukraine’s response to the war has been consistently clumsy, draconian and self-defeating.
These shortcomings have accompanied a deepening linguistic divide. Before the war, language wasn’t a major issue, but propaganda has thrust it to the center of this conflict. In March, a law requiring at least 75 percent of national TV broadcasts to be in Ukrainian passed its first parliamentary reading. While some view the Ukrainian language as central to the country's identity, critics warn that such regulation will simply alienate Russian speakers, including many in Donbass.
If Ukraine loses the region for good, it could set a dangerous precedent for further separatist uprisings. This would force the state to funnel more funds into defense—money that could be used to weed out corruption and finance education and health care.
ublicly, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko’s administration demands the return of the eastern breakaway territories, but privately, Kiev’s pro-European leaders worry that re-integrating the self-proclaimed “Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics” would bring back hostile voters, thus weakening their grip on power. “There is an unspoken consensus among lawmakers that the occupied Donbass should not return to Ukraine. They feel it may hinder their electoral future,” Minakov tells Newsweek . “Re-integrating Donbass presents many challenges. But, if we don’t do this, we threaten the integrity of the entire country.”
Make a conclusion yourself.
 
Let's read a random article in Western MSM
Can Ukraine win over pro-Russian citizens in the east—and finally end the war with separatists?

Locals frequently regard governmental forces as occupants as they speak Ukrainian in this almost purely Russian speaking region.


Kiev authorities are extremely unpopular in Donbass and indeed it would be logical to give Donbass wide authonomy and forget about it. But there are other inportant mostly Russian speaking regions and the threat of domino effect is big.

Ukraine is one of the most poor countries in Europe and Kiev authorities merely haven't resources to 'win hearts and minds'. At the same time soon education in Ukraine will be only in Ukrainian. To have a job in police, in governmental structures, in public sector one has to know Ukrainian on a good level that is a problem for locals.



With such 'methods' it would be hard to win hearts and minds.







Make a conclusion yourself.
My conclusion is that Putin & his regime are murderous criminals & all those who support his actions (including by trolling), are scum.
 
Make a conclusion yourself.
Easy. An Army described in that article was regaining the ground until direct Russian involvement including GBAD. Still, that Army with older generation kit and made up of volunteers, reservists etc. stalled the Russian advances. They (the Russians) couldn’t even take Mariupol and get the longed for land bridge to Crimea.
 
Easy. An Army described in that article was regaining the ground until direct Russian involvement including GBAD. Still, that Army with older generation kit and made up of volunteers, reservists etc. stalled the Russian advances. They (the Russians) couldn’t even take Mariupol and get the longed for land bridge to Crimea.
This cannot be, I must still be dreaming.

The mighty Russian Army - the most feared in the world, the same ones who laugh at American Military might?

I'm not having it.

Although the last time I encountered Russian Troops all they were interested in was scrounging cigarettes as they hadn't been paid for months.

And that's not propaganda @KGB_resident , that was me, boots on the ground - talking to Russian Troops.


MB
 
This cannot be, I must still be dreaming.

The mighty Russian Army - the most feared in the world, the same ones who laugh at American Military might?

I'm not having it.

Although the last time I encountered Russian Troops all they were interested in was scrounging cigarettes as they hadn't been paid for months.

And that's not propaganda @KGB_resident , that was me, boots on the ground - talking to Russian Troops.


MB
You'll be telling me next that they were sober and the vehicles had screen wash and antifreeze.
 
No problem. Just accept Ukraine into NATO and unleash Crimean war v2.0.
Though ... even Gavin the Kid understands how it would end.
Putin upside down in a moscow filling station as the crowd of drunken slavs in tracksuits (is there any other kind?) mutilate his remains?
 
Putin upside down in a moscow filling station as the crowd of drunken slavs in tracksuits (is there any other kind?) mutilate his remains?
'Most likely' you are sleeping and see a sweat dream. Why not to return to realities of our imperfect World?
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Magic_Mushroom Tanks, planes & ships 44
CRmeansCeilingReached Int Corps 12
redshift The Intelligence Cell 4762

Similar threads

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top