MERS Coronavirus warning

[Graculus]

No that is not "the science".

A pretty interesting thing about 2020 has been that, in a time of unprecedented availability of information, people read one article and think "ah excellent, I am now an expert, everybody listen to my half-baked opinions", rather than "fück me this is quite complicated, I am going to try and educate myself on the scientific consensus".

Cue Science Hell jpg....which I watched happening with a female astrophysicist or similar on twitter being lectured by bubba/mansplainer extraordinaire.

 

[PhotEx]

Any given area of medicine is by itself a hugely complicated subject, much more so than climate science. There is no hope of understanding all of it, even in say the treatment of a specific disease type. What you have to do is understand the current general consensus position, and then be able to use your experience and knowledge to colour which bits are more or less reliable, and then interpret new information in that light.

I have just come off a call discussing a possible new combination treatment we are working on for a type of cancer, and this needs me (clinical scientist) and the physician for compound A, with our translational scientist, preclinical scientist, the pharmacokinetics goons, the predictive scientists, and also some modeling nerds looking at toxicity. Then add the same group of people for the compound B in the combination. These are all experts in their areas, but there is just too much for any given individual to know. We have to rely on their knowledge to get started.

It is in fact completely wrong to say the only important thing in science is what you can prove. Nobody would get anything done. Go to any medical conference (maybe not this year) and there will be a host of "how I treat" sessions. You need to understand and trust the general information before having innovative ideas.

We* are smarter than you**. The lay person is well advised to go with the general scientific consensus, whether its climate science, wearing masks, or vaccination.

*meaning scientists en masse
** as an individual

why aren’t you using your normal account?

 

[PhotEx]

Yep. But I bet they pull a scruffy mask out of a hip pocket and bang it on the front of their swedes, and aren't so careful about their social distancing because intuitively they feel safe.

Just like the Norgie/Swedish scientists said they would.

Now had gov/society just concentrated on social distancing and singing to the virus while washing our hands, without the facemasks, maybe things would be a bit better?

Who knows?

Sweden you say?

Sweden admits it is seeing no sign of herd immunity slowing Covid

Sweden's light-touch approach to tackling the pandemic has garnered global attention. The country registered 17,265 new cases since Friday, according to its Health Agency on Tuesday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[terminal]

Nice. Kind of makes you wonder why, for centuries, scientists have published their theories and results of their experiments and had their peers review what they had come up with. Seems like it’s only in the last few years that this has fallen out of fashion and scientists just get to make pronouncements and not have to prove anything to anyone, even their contemporaries. Perhaps there could be a connection to this situation and the dumb populous becoming sceptical about their smarter state and private scientists.

I would have thought that the fact that any medical treatment is tested in small groups and proved before being more widely used would tell the lie of your statement too. I mean doctors and scientists can’t just decide to do something without proving it is safe and effective can they?

Have you not been following this very thread where there have been numerous posts on the results of vaccine and drug trials?

 

[terminal]

Here's the COVID-19 summary for Tuesday.
Coronavirus: What's happening in Canada and around the world on Tuesday

Community transmission is widespread all over the US and the chances of encountering someone with COVID-19 is very high.

The United States surpassed 86,000 hospitalizations for COVID-19 on Tuesday as 30 of the 50 states reported record numbers of patients this month. The country is averaging more than 1,500 coronavirus deaths and 171,000 new cases a day.

"There is so much community transmission all over the United States that the chances of you encountering somebody that has COVID-19 is actually very, very high, whether it's on an airplane, at the airport or at a rest area," said Dr. Syra Madad, an infectious disease epidemiologist for New York City hospitals.

Los Angeles USA may be going into lock down soon as the number of cases rises to very high levels locally.

The largest county in the U.S. is on the brink of a stay-home order after a coronavirus surge surpassed a level set by Los Angeles County public health officials to trigger such an action. A swell of new cases on Monday put the county over an average of 4,500 cases per day.

Mexico has cancelled an annual religious pilgrimage that in normal years attracts huge crowds.

In Mexico, church and civic leaders cancelled an annual gathering that attracts massive crowds of Catholic pilgrims to protect people.

France will begin reducing lock down levels this weekend.

In Europe, France will start easing its COVID-19 lockdown this weekend so that by Christmas, shops, theatres and cinemas will reopen and people will be able to spend the holiday with their families, President Emmanuel Macron said on Tuesday.

The Czech Republic are planning on testing the entire country using rapid tests. The intention is to do the test a week or so before Christmas. I've previously said that I have my doubts about the utility of rapid tests in mass screening applications as they are less accurate than standard PCR tests.

The Czech Republic's prime minister said his government is working on a plan to use rapid coronavirus tests for the entire country. Andrej Babis said the antigen testing will be free and won't be mandatory, adding that it would take place a week or 10 days before Christmas with help from the military.

Germany will shorten quarantine from 14 days to 10 days for contacts of a COVID-19 case if their test is negative.

State and federal health authorities in Germany say they are shortening quarantine periods for people who have come into contact with a confirmed COVID case from 14 days to 10, if they provide a negative test.

The EU say that they could provide a scientific opinion on COVID-19 vaccines by the end of the year in a best case scenario.

The European Medicines Agency could produce a scientific opinion on COVID-19 vaccines seeking regulatory approval by the end of the year in a best-case scenario.

In Malaysia Top Glove Corp. have had a major outbreak among their workers and say it will result in a 2 to 4 week delay in deliveries to their customers. Top Glove are the world's biggest rubber glove company and supply a quarter of the world's demand. This is a story that may be worth remembering for the next month or so in the event there is a shortage of medical gloves globally.

Malaysia's Top Glove Corp., the world's largest maker of rubber gloves, said Tuesday it expects a two- to four-week delay in deliveries after more than 2,000 workers at its factories were infected by the coronavirus, raising the possibility of supply disruptions during the pandemic.

Iran reported 13,721 new cases and 483 new deaths. Iran will be importing foreign vaccines but will also be developing their own. There's nothing in the report which tells us if vaccine manufacturing is a short term or long term goal.

In the Middle East, Iran reported a record high 13,721 new cases and a near-record 483 deaths in the past 24 hours. President Hassan Rouhani said on Tuesday the country plans to use foreign coronavirus vaccines while also developing its own.

 

[terminal]

There has been some discussion on this thread of countries requiring proof of COVID-19 vaccination before letting people enter their countries next year. It appears that this may be coming to pass as some air lines and some countries are already talking about it, although the details are not available at this time.
International travellers may need COVID-19 vaccines before they can board some airlines

Qantas were the first to mention it in public, with the head of the air line saying that he has been talking to other airlines about a standard "vaccination passport" for international travellers.

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce said he's been talking to his counterparts at other airlines around the world about the possibility of a "vaccination passport" for international travellers.

"We are looking at changing our terms and conditions to say for international travellers, that we will ask people to have the vaccination before they get on the aircraft," Joyce told Australia's Network Nine television.

Korean Air and Air New Zealand also said the same, but added that they see this being driven by government requirements.

South Korea's largest airline has a similar message. Jill Chung, a spokesperson for Korean Air, said Tuesday there's a real possibility that airlines will require that passengers be vaccinated. She said that's because governments are likely to require vaccinations as a condition for lifting quarantine requirements for new arrivals.

While Korean Air is reviewing several possibilities for screening, any change by the company or other airlines would be the result of co-ordination with governments, Chung said.

"This is not something for airlines to independently decide," she said.

Air New Zealand echoed Chung's position.

"Ultimately, it's up to governments to determine when and how it is safe to reopen borders and we continue to work closely with authorities on this," Air New Zealand said in a statement.

 

[stanley_bomb_squad]

Any given area of medicine is by itself a hugely complicated subject, much more so than climate science. There is no hope of understanding all of it, even in say the treatment of a specific disease type. What you have to do is understand the current general consensus position, and then be able to use your experience and knowledge to colour which bits are more or less reliable, and then interpret new information in that light.

I have just come off a call discussing a possible new combination treatment we are working on for a type of cancer, and this needs me (clinical scientist) and the physician for compound A, with our translational scientist, preclinical scientist, the pharmacokinetics goons, the predictive scientists, and also some modeling nerds looking at toxicity. Then add the same group of people for the compound B in the combination. These are all experts in their areas, but there is just too much for any given individual to know. We have to rely on their knowledge to get started.

It is in fact completely wrong to say the only important thing in science is what you can prove. Nobody would get anything done. Go to any medical conference (maybe not this year) and there will be a host of "how I treat" sessions. You need to understand and trust the general information before having innovative ideas.

We* are smarter than you**. The lay person is well advised to go with the general scientific consensus, whether its climate science, wearing masks, or vaccination.

*meaning scientists en masse
** as an individual

The problem with a specialist is they know more and more about less and less and then their word becomes the word of god and they can do no wrong.
Until they do and even then it's very difficult to to call them out on it because who are you?
The NHS 'fresh eyes' concept disappears.
Those of us of a Geological bent know the name V J Gupta only too well.

Viswa Jit Gupta – multiple acts of research fraud and misconduct in the Himalayas

Overview Viswa or Vishwa Gupta was an Indian geologist and palaeontologist based at Punjab University who co-authored hundreds of papers, wrote several widely used books and was a star of Indian Ge…

drgeoffnutrition.wordpress.com

Of course it couldnt possibly happen now.

 

[Whey_Aye_Banzai]

Sweden you say?

Sweden admits it is seeing no sign of herd immunity slowing Covid

Sweden's light-touch approach to tackling the pandemic has garnered global attention. The country registered 17,265 new cases since Friday, according to its Health Agency on Tuesday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Without looking, I'm going to say Sweden have done better than the UK and many other western countries who have been wearing masks for some months.

Or, at the minimum, no worse. Before anyone says Norway's doing better, they don't have mandatory mask wearing outside of public transport either.

Masks you say?

 

[shouldknowbetter]

The problem with a specialist is they know more and more about less and less and then their word becomes the word of god and they can do no wrong.
Until they do and even then it's very difficult to to call them out on it because who are you?
The NHS 'fresh eyes' concept disappears.
Those of us of a Geological bent know the name V J Gupta only too well.

Viswa Jit Gupta – multiple acts of research fraud and misconduct in the Himalayas

Overview Viswa or Vishwa Gupta was an Indian geologist and palaeontologist based at Punjab University who co-authored hundreds of papers, wrote several widely used books and was a star of Indian Ge…

drgeoffnutrition.wordpress.com

Of course it couldnt possibly happen now.

Woah! What are you doing man? Don’t question the all knowing, omnipresent, so much smarter and better than you, scientists! You should learn your place and just accept everything they are telling you, even if by a cursory glance you can see it’s rubbish. Cos they know better than you and they all agree, well, other than the ones that disagree but they are tinfoil wearers and idiots. And consensus is all that matters. Well consensus of the group of scientists who are approved and toe the party line is all that matters. Everyone else is a crazy denier if they disagree.

 

[Nick Dipples]

Woah! What are you doing man? Don’t question the all knowing, omnipresent, so much smarter and better than you, scientists! You should learn your place and just accept everything they are telling you, even if by a cursory glance you can see it’s rubbish. Cos they know better than you and they all agree, well, other than the ones that disagree but they are tinfoil wearers and idiots. And consensus is all that matters. Well consensus of the group of scientists who are approved and toe the party line is all that matters. Everyone else is a crazy denier if they disagree.

Ah yes another "tired of experts" poster, how novel. Which aspect of medicine are you against, specifically? Or just the concept of people being SMEs in general?

Does bad science exist? Of course it does. Should scientists read evidence critically and work out not just what it says, but what it doesn't say? What the problems are? 100%.

Should everyone listen to dumbasses on the internet dribbling on about masks and 5G?definitely not.

 

[pc supa]

Woah! What are you doing man? Don’t question the all knowing, omnipresent, so much smarter and better than you, scientists! You should learn your place and just accept everything they are telling you, even if by a cursory glance you can see it’s rubbish. Cos they know better than you and they all agree, well, other than the ones that disagree but they are tinfoil wearers and idiots. And consensus is all that matters. Well consensus of the group of scientists who are approved and toe the party line is all that matters. Everyone else is a crazy denier if they disagree.

The only thing I agree with in this dribble is the posters username.

 

[stanley_bomb_squad]

Woah! What are you doing man? Don’t question the all knowing, omnipresent, so much smarter and better than you, scientists! You should learn your place and just accept everything they are telling you, even if by a cursory glance you can see it’s rubbish. Cos they know better than you and they all agree, well, other than the ones that disagree but they are tinfoil wearers and idiots. And consensus is all that matters. Well consensus of the group of scientists who are approved and toe the party line is all that matters. Everyone else is a crazy denier if they disagree.

More none party line lunacy from this clown, he even had some nonsense back in the spring about Vit D being effective as a treatment:

MMR vaccine and COVID immunity - YouTube

What a nutter, I mean a tested cheap readily available vaccine that will achieve what magic vaccine will (FDA unlikely to approve AstraZeneca one due to it not preventing transmission) and the only people it'll upset is the anti-vaxers, which is funny in itself...

Oh and shareholders.

And full on Branch Covidians as its not 'approved' science.

 

[Nick Dipples]

View attachment 523527

More none party line lunacy from this clown, he even had some nonsense back in the spring about Vit D being effective as a treatment:

MMR vaccine and COVID immunity - YouTube

What a nutter, I mean a tested cheap readily available vaccine that will achieve what magic vaccine will (FDA unlikely to approve AstraZeneca one due to it not preventing transmission) and the only people it'll upset is the anti-vaxers, which is funny in itself...

Oh and shareholders.

And full on Branch Covidians as its not 'approved' science.

Thanks for demonstrating that you don't have a clue about either adjuvant immune therapies or vaccines!

 

[Norsemaid]

I ve listened to John Campbell,for months now .Hes quite an interesting person in the sense that he comes up with different topics to do with covid .
I found the video you posted really interesting to listen to .
I've had mumps and rubella naturally as the rubella vaccine failed on me . The mumps vaccine wasn't around in my youth . I was vaccinated against measles though .
I'm wondering if a good titre score acquired naturally is as effective and helps towards a milder dose against covid as well as the vaccinated bunch .
As for the vitamin D thing I had a bad bout of pneumonia this time last year and I googled self help after pneumonia and vit D popped up . I had already been told my levels were low in the summer of 2019 and so I strarted taking vit D with magnesium and vit C and it has helped .
This summer I made sure I sat out in the sun as much as I could .Now of course the sun isn't as strong in uv levels so I'm wmaking sure that I'm taking supplements everyday .

 

[Nick Dipples]

OK I'll bite. Tell me what you think the take away is from that study (and the video, if you like).

Then for an encore tell me what you think about the AZ vaccine in comparison with the Moderna and BioNTech vaccines, given you think it won't be approved.

 

[stanley_bomb_squad]

Your clearly a full cult member so there is no point at all.
Watch it don't, watch it, and you need to address your other concerns to the US FDA if they refuse to approve magic vaccine.

 

[Nick Dipples]

Your clearly a full cult member so there is no point at all.
Watch it don't, watch it, and you need to address your other concerns to the US FDA if they refuse to approve magic vaccine.

Good good, so we agree you have nothing of substance to say and are just spamming the thread with videos made by retired nurses

 

[Whey_Aye_Banzai]

Good good, so we agree you have nothing of substance to say and are just spamming the thread with videos made by retired nurses

John Campbell appears to be a well educated and balanced retired nurse (I think he taught nurses). I'm pretty sure he holds a doctorate and what he does is speak about this paper that he links to:

Analysis of Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) Titers of Recovered COVID-19 Patients

The measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine has been theorized to provide protection against coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Our aim was to determine whether any MMR IgG titers are inversely correlated with severity in recovered COVID-19 patients previously vaccinated with MMR II. We divided 80...

mbio.asm.org

I know it's much easier to ad hom the source though.

 

[Nick Dipples]

John Campbell appears to be a well educated and balanced retired nurse (I think he taught nurses). I'm pretty sure he holds a doctorate and what he does is speak about this paper that he links to:

Analysis of Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) Titers of Recovered COVID-19 Patients

The measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine has been theorized to provide protection against coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Our aim was to determine whether any MMR IgG titers are inversely correlated with severity in recovered COVID-19 patients previously vaccinated with MMR II. We divided 80...

mbio.asm.org

I know it's much easier to ad hom the source though.

I've read the paper. I do not think it's valuable. Why do you think it is?

Unless they did it in a relevant scientific discipline, if a nurse with a PhD introduces him/herself as Dr X outside an academic context, you should treat what they say with a high degree of caution. Like if you were looking at a turd that's come out of a dog you think may have swallowed a pound coin. Only inspect it if you are very hard up, and then be sure to wash it thoroughly before use.

 

[Whey_Aye_Banzai]

I've read the paper. I do not think it's valuable. Why do you think it is?

Unless they did it in a relevant scientific discipline, if a nurse with a PhD introduces him/herself as Dr X outside an academic context, you should treat what they say with a high degree of caution. Like if you were looking at a turd that's come out of a dog you think may have swallowed a pound coin. Only inspect it if you are very hard up, and then be sure to wash it thoroughly before use.

I've no views on the paper either way. I've not read it nor listened to Dr Campbell.

My point is that it seems lazy minded to merely ad hom the source rather than discuss the content.

As far as I know Campbell's pretty mainstream anyway; I doubt there's much he'd say that you'd disagree with.