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MERS Coronavirus warning

Knowing very little about Florence Nightingale, but I saw a tv programme that suggested she was not so much a brilliant nurse, as more an expert at statistics and data presentation. The graph you show is a good example of how good presentation of data can explain things very quickly, starkly and simply.
 
Well most didn't to begin with. UK CMO listed all the reasons why the public shouldn't wear masks, before they u-turned. Welsh gov did similar saying there was 'no high quality evidence' to support general mask wearing and held out for longer than England on the issue. Mounting pressure from the hysterical elements of the public made the Welsh u-turn too.

I'd much prefer an evidence-led approach than a hysterical-public-opinion-approach.

And the Norgies listed a lot of reasons why they wouldn't/haven't mandated mask wearing (incorrect dangerous use and getting lax with other stuff like hygiene and social distancing).

I'm sure everyone regularly sees people pulling on a mask as they go into supermarkets and walk straight past the sanitising stations.

I also think top-down heavy-handed legislation and enforcement, when there's a lack of high quality evidence that masks work, just divides and make large parts of the public push back.


For the sake of the thread, may you and @Higgs_bosun @terminal @3ToedSloth et al agree that masks of themselves are likely effective (as evidenced in a medical setting) but that people themselves, can bollocks it all up (by wearing the same mask for too long, not washing/replacing it, repeatedly use the same mask, no longer socially distancing etc).

It seems to be the disagreement about mask wearing is diverging to a point beyond reconciliation and I think it is because effectively two (nuanced) positions are being put forward.
 
I’m just watching a live feed of Matt Hancock being grilled by a Committee of MPs, chaired by his predecessor,Jeremy Hunt (Yes, I know, I need to get out more).
Fascinating to watch the dynamics between the current Secretary of State and his predecessor, both Tories, as they try and remain on the right side of politeness, whilst at the same time, it’s obvious they loathe each other! Politics, what a dirty game it is!
 

JCC

War Hero
I recently read 1984 after reading so many comments about it; it's a bit like an alternative reality. I thought Orwell was spot on when it came to the Thinkpol and how it's heretical to form opinions based on the evidence of your own eyes (you must believe what the party tell you).

And here we have police trying to stop people from actually going to work to make a living.

It's weird isn't it.
The authorities have marched people up to the top of a hill and now people are asking why. They lost a lot of trust by spinning and now when they need cooperation people are growing wary.
 

JCC

War Hero
Knowing very little about Florence Nightingale, but I saw a tv programme that suggested she was not so much a brilliant nurse, as more an expert at statistics and data presentation. The graph you show is a good example of how good presentation of data can explain things very quickly, starkly and simply.
I suspect she also invented calculus - the horror.
 
I suspect she also invented calculus - the horror.
I think she might have been a bit late to the game with that. Newton and Leibniz both published the foundations of calculus in the mid 17th century
 
Wow so the AstraZenica vaccine is more effective in a smaller dose?
Surely the sensible thing to do is to reduce the dose even more then and see if it gets even more effective.
I mean that is following the science, which we always do, as long as its the right science.

No that is not "the science".

A pretty interesting thing about 2020 has been that, in a time of unprecedented availability of information, people read one article and think "ah excellent, I am now an expert, everybody listen to my half-baked opinions", rather than "fück me this is quite complicated, I am going to try and educate myself on the scientific consensus".
 
Wow so the AstraZenica vaccine is more effective in a smaller dose?
Surely the sensible thing to do is to reduce the dose even more then and see if it gets even more effective.
Homeopathy walt
 
Question: am I legally /morally in self isolation.?
Went into work yesterday (Monday) shared space with two Co workers. We got a call from our line manager saying that he was self isolating as he came into proximity last weds with someone who has now tested cv+ as I was with him /them I have been sent home (unpaid as agency sub) I managed to blag a test which came back negative today. I'm definitely staying out of the way till the weekend and obviously if any symptoms show I'll re test. I have not been notified by NHS it was just word of mouth.

So last weds possible contact with infectious person who tested + shortly after and I tested negative this Monday.
Thanks for any info
 
Question: am I legally /morally in self isolation.?
Went into work yesterday (Monday) shared space with two Co workers. We got a call from our line manager saying that he was self isolating as he came into proximity last weds with someone who has now tested cv+ as I was with him /them I have been sent home (unpaid as agency sub) I managed to blag a test which came back negative today. I'm definitely staying out of the way till the weekend and obviously if any symptoms show I'll re test. I have not been notified by NHS it was just word of mouth.

So last weds possible contact with infectious person who tested + shortly after and I tested negative this Monday.
Thanks for any info
Similar to Boris Johnson, he tested negative but still has to do the self isolation. He was pinged by track and trace though, would imagine it's still the same rules.

If you carry a crucifix or a pocket full of posies, the arrse self appointed professors reckon you will be fine though come what may.
 

3ToedSloth

War Hero
My, my we are touchy aren't we?
For calmly pointing out inconsistencies in your response?

Which conspiracy is it I ascribe too, I forget?

But I fully agree with your view on conspiracy theorists and wasn't suggesting that you should but merely its what a full on loon would (and did) do.

I honestly don't give a toss if you reply or not, the fact you feel you need to justify how long it took you to reply is again immaterial to me, I have far better things to do with my life.
Then why bring it up and have a hissy fit claiming I ignored you when I asked for clarification as to which question was directed to me? It doesn't sound like you have better things to do in life.


So there is no conclusive evidence face nappies work, nor any evidence that, unaccountably, retail staff exposed to the general public for 8 hours a day on the shop floor suffered any disproportionate increase (I heard the same comment on Talk Radio last night) but there are no studies.
If you say so, but there's been plenty of evidence posted on this thread already that's sufficient to convince anyone with a scientific background that there's probably some reduction in transmission with masks. It doesn't get much more reliable than Nature, but the guidance might change as more information becomes available - Face masks: what the data say.

I know no more about supermarkets than the next man, but I don't think it's the gotcha point you think it is:
The government issued guidelines for supermarkets to help reduce the risk for customers and staff
Supermarkets brought in PPE for most staff and shields around the checkout.
They've encouraged card rather than cash to minimise human contact.
They limited the number of customers in the store at any one time.
Hand gel was freely available for staff and customers.
Presumably, some form of training was made available to staff too to minimise risk of exposure.
I have heard that those with health problems were placed in less customer facing roles.

But still, supermarket staff had higher rates of infection:

Here's an article with ludicrously small sample size and at a single snapshot but suggests higher levels of covid-19 infection in supermarket workers:

Here's a Hancock quote from Face masks necessary to protect shop workers from higher coronavirus death risk, Hancock tells MPs
“The death rate of sales and retail assistants is 75 per cent higher amongst men and 60 per cent higher amongst women than in the general population. So as we restore shopping, we must keep our shopkeepers safe. There's also evidence that face coverings increase confidence in people to shop.”

And therein lies the problem, because if there are studies/data about the larger effects of their policies the Government not only isn't publishing them but is refusing too, which implies reaction without any reason not due to a specific threat.
You seem more interested in focussing on the problems than the solutions. There's limits to the data and the studies, yet decisions still need to be made based on expert opinion and whatever data is available. Most countries have brought in these measures for a reason, but it could turn out that some were unnecessary. China enforced lockdown and mask wearing very strictly and they appear to be living essentially post-Covid - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30800-8/fulltext.

Are you suggesting the "reaction without any reason" is due to incompetence, malicious conspiracy, or their best efforts under the circumstances?

You asked me a specific question and I gave a specific answer. You seem to be confused how the WHO produce documents, they probably do engage experts in their various fields and ask them to produce the Pam in question.
Or do you imagine they follow some other course of action which makes their Boys Own copy of Pandemics worthless?
But I could be wrong.
I would expect that policies would be updated as more information becomes available.

In the wise words of Stuart Leslie Goddard.
Ridicule is nothing to be scared of.
Perhaps it's time to update your ridicule with something more original than 'face nappies'.
 
Under the wonderous sensible legislation there are no offences unless you ignore a command from Track and Trace.

I had a similar situation the other week.
Workmate assisted a bloke off duty in a pub (remember them?) who then gets a positive test in hospital.
She gets a call from Track and Trace halfway through the shift and has to go home for free holidays, obviously with no symptoms.
We all remain in work and carry on, she gets a negative test result and still has to complete the free time off period. This is why we are a 'special case' and not allowed to have the wonderful app on our phones and why it is not installed on thousands of police devices across the land.

Hopefully that makes sense?

Well no obviously it makes no sense at all but welcome to the world of knee jerk poorly thought through legislation and multi billion pound contracts.
 

JCC

War Hero
I think she might have been a bit late to the game with that. Newton and Leibniz both published the foundations of calculus in the mid 17th century
There speaks a typical representive of the male patriarchy. Would it kill you to admit a black woman was the first?!
 

Norsemaid

Clanker
I think the stomach for this covid stuff is becoming wearing for people who would normally comply with rules and regs due to too much information of opposing views, plus the experiences that they have thmslves . Folk are left with a who to trust dilemma and then decide to do what best for them .
I was for the lockdown first time around and as I was a shielded person made sure I was isolating and when I was allowed out ( and when. I'm allowed out again ) wear masks , SD and hand wash use gel etc .
I won't be breaking the rules but it is getting tiring .
I hope the vaccine is as effective as they say it is , however , announcignthe vaccines now might encourage folk to break the lockdownas they'll see it as a cure of sorts so think oh well, not to worry I'll be immunised soon .c
I can see why during the Second World War information was controlled .
Can you imagine what Keunsberg etc would have been like during the early part of the war ?
"Prime minister are you going to resign ? It's a phoney war, then charge them with not doing enough to stop the blitz .
 
No that is not "the science".

A pretty interesting thing about 2020 has been that, in a time of unprecedented availability of information, people read one article and think "ah excellent, I am now an expert, everybody listen to my half-baked opinions", rather than "fück me this is quite complicated, I am going to try and educate myself on the scientific consensus".
Never at any time in history has the human race had access to such much data; yet simultaneously, been so spectacularly ill-informed.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 
I won't be breaking the rules but it is getting tiring .

Loads of Welsh when they had their firebreak kicked off because they weren't allowed to buy 'non essential items' from supermarkets. It was potatoes and turnips only for them.

I personally think they should keep 'rules' to an absolute minimum but should've pushed 'principles' hard, like the Japanese did with the 'Three C's'. Educate people on what they need to do to stay safe, keep it simple, and let people work out for themselves what they need to do.

And my neighbour over the road shielded also, (ex Rodney from the D&Ds) the first time around; we did all his shopping for him. He's recovering from prostrate cancer and he's in his 70s. Bored with shielding and lockdowns, he didn't want shielded this time around (we offered).

He's been out all day; his car's not there.

He's very naughty.
 

Norsemaid

Clanker
Never at any time in history has the human race had access to such much data; yet simultaneously, been so spectacularly ill-informed.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
I think for what it's worth is that everyone has an opinion and although that's always been the case, it was shared locally , over the garden fence as it were , but with the advent of social media everyone wants and indeed demand s to be heard .
Theories would take years to be heard and indeed developed but now the first thought is captured and then belted out by the touch of a button !
 
There speaks a typical representive of the male patriarchy. Would it kill you to admit a black woman was the first?!
Are you presuming Sir Isaac's gender and colour?
 

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