Merkel and Co want to "do and East Germany" on Greece.

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by BugzDaMick, May 25, 2012.

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  1. Apparently, Merkel wants to apply the same sort of “economic plan” to Greece that totally devastated the East German economy between 1990 and 1994 and is still ongoing.
    I hope the Greeks tell her and her cronies where they can stuff their plan. I suppose it comes down to the old saying: “If you keep doing the same thing, you get the same results”, but that doesn’t seem to bother ole Angela. Anyway, here’s the story from the Daidley Maidley:
    Eurozone debt crisis: France and Germany hit as Euro plunges to lowest level in 2 years | Mail Online

    The "Treuhandanstalt" was originally designed to allow GDR citizens to participate in the careful privatisation of what they commonly owned according to Socialist principles and would have given each citizen around 40,000 Deutschmarks apiece. Initially, the agency created by the Hans Modrow gobment had no influence at all on the deliberately independent “Treuhand” and certainly no access to any funds in it. But there was no way the West German Capitalists were going to stand for that. So they unilaterally altered the remit of the “Treuhand” to: “privatisation at any price”, which also included expropriating all the commonly owned assets of the GDR population. Detlef Rohwedder (the second boss of the “Treuhand”) was inclined to go along with the original wishes of the Modrow gobment, which meant that he had to go (by assassination) and he was replaced by Birgit Breuel who then willingly complied with the wishes of the West German industrial, commercial and banking sectors and comprehensively annihilated the East German economy to provide markets for West German products and commodities.

    West German estimates from the beginning of 1990 put the value of GDR production facilities (including the ground they stood on) at around 650 billion Deutschmarks. If you include all the rest of the assets that all belonged to the citizens, i.e. all the public transport, shipping, housing and commercial premises, etc, the whole shebang was worth something like 1.2 trillion Deutschmarks (again West German figures). The "Treuhand", mainly in the hands of that corrupt, inept twat Birgit Breuel (who later went on to totally **** up the EXPO2000 exhibition in Hanover) turned all that into a state debt of almost 250 billion Deutschmarks. You couldn’t make it up!


    PS. That should be "an" in the title, not "and". Sorry!
  2. For a devastated economy, the former East Germany looks in very good condition. There were hundreds if not thousands of millions of State and private money pumped into the place. Of all the former eastern block countries, East Germany/Neue Bundesländer is by far and away the best off. Indeed the infrastructure is beginning to attract envious glances and not a few moans from the West.
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  3. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    when the eu look at the past with rose tinted specs, they never seem to remember that the ossies would have rather kept all their industries instead of seeing them shut down, forcing them west to find work. if they use reunification as a plan for europe then germany might have cause to complain, they spent a trillion plus marks and still havent finished. meanwhile the ossies hate the wessies and vise versa.
  4. I agree that a lot of money was pumped into the place to provide urgent improvements. What you neglect to mention is that practically all of the funds were from the gobment and they went to West German companies because by then the East German companies had been forced out of existence. So the money that went East rapidly made its way back West.

    It’s also true that the Wessis are envious of all the new stuff in East Germany. I’m sure they’d like to go there, but not only has the number of jobs decreased, but also the population figures. See here:
    Berlin-Institut für Bevölkerung und Entwicklung: Ostdeutschland
    Most of the folks in East Germany are on “Harz IV” which is hardly enough to live on anyway. And things don’t look like they’re going to improve anytime soon employment-wise. See here:
    Die Entwicklung der Arbeitslosigkeit in Deutschland | bpb
    The truth is that the greedy Wessi Capitalists, especially and in particular the banks, cynically saddled the German taxpayers with colossal debts, just so that they could book massive profits for their companies and financial institutes. Now the chickens have well and truly come home to roost. And they really believe that what went so disastrously and tragically wrong in East Germany is going to be a success in Greece?

  5. Which was for a large part the fault of the Ossies themselves. After the wall came down, they neglected the few competitive Eastern products and bought western junk instead. It was joked at the time that the Ossies would rather buy a thirdhand rusty western car instead of a brandnew Wartburg with a modern fourstroke Volkswagen engine. In the end most of the East German industry, which had a remote chance of being competitive was desroyed because nobody wanted to buy their products. When the Ostalgia wave came, it was already too late.
    Other industries were left without any re-investment in the same condition they were in the 1950s, this means totally outclassed by the West and not competitive.
    A few showcase companies, e.g. Jenoptik (formerly Carl Zeiss Jena) survived, because they manufactured products, which were already sellable before the wall came down.
  6. This is quite/extremely radical but:

    Germany could issue joint German-Greco bonds on a bilateral basis. Greece is a fraction of German GDP (circa 8%). It's easily doable and would instantly ally many fears leaving Spain to focus on what to do (Italy has a TON of assets it can sell).
  7. [My bold in your post] That’s what the German gobment has spent millions of euro and Deutschmarks on since 1989 - making folks believe that the East Germans were to blame for the catastrophe that became the former GDR. It's just not true. Yes, the East Germans tended to favour Wessi goods, but not when it came to their workplaces. The West German DGB (Boxheed TUC) comprehensively surveyed the GDR production facilities in Spring 1990 and came to the conclusion that 60 percent of the companies were going concerns, 20 percent could be made viable with a bit of investment and 20 percent were dead ducks. The West Germans wanted it all gone, no matter what, and they got their wish with the connivance of the gobment in the form of the "Treuhand".

    Just look up what happened to the potash industry (Wernigerode) in the GDR and how it was smashed by BASF. The same thing happened to the shipbuilding industry up on the Baltic coast. In addition, the GDR was the recognised world-leader in the complicated machinery required for the bulk processing of rice, wheat and other cereals as well as pulses. That too was destroyed. The GDR was also the only country in the world that could produce refrigerated railway carriages (at world prices) that could stand temperatures from minus 50 to plus 50 degrees with a useful life of 45 years. So don’t tell me that all of the economy wasn’t viable. It’s just that the Wessis wanted it destroyed because they didn’t like the competition.

  8. Maybe the USA can start asking for the money back with interest for the Marshall Plan?
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  9. Bugz, I'm not saying that I disagree with you in your broader analysis, but the flaw in your argument is this - what do the Greeks actually make anymore that would indicate that they have domestic industries that other EU states would wish to put out of business?
  10. My ex GF's dad was a successful businessman in the west with a multi million pounds going concern in a specialised area of the steel industry. He decided to invest in a mothballed former GDR steelworks, and went up to meet with the management. He was an Indian guy married to a German woman he met at Uni in the 70s, really nice guy. He turns up at the factory and the security guard at the gate tell him to go away there is nothing here for niggers, the management guys he is meeting then try to say he has misheard when they are told about it and do **** all, (all they had to do was get the guy of the site and sort it out later). Cue one investor driving back to West and a works left to rot. I am not saying every case was like that but most Easties I met were useless in the same way as a lot of doleys here, sense of entitlement out of all proportion to there capabilities and it was all someone else's fault.
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  11. Two points:
    1. The GDR received nothing at all under the Marshall Plan.
    2. At the Potsdam Conference, it was agreed that Germany should pay war retributions to the Soviet Union in the amount of 10 billion dollars (at 1938 prices). The GDR paid 97 percent of that and West Germany just three percent. In the end, the GDR actually paid 15 billion dollars (again at 1938 prices) to the Soviet Union. It was one of the main reasons why the GDR always trailed behind West Germany economically.

    The Economics Department at Bremen University calculated in 1991 that because of that deferred debt, which was added to the Marshall Plan payments and helped to fund the West German "Wirtschaftswunder", West Germany owed the GDR something like 780 billion Deutschmarks, with compound interest. That was vehemently denied by the West German gobment at the time and was never paid.
    I can understand where you see a flaw, but the principle is the same: privatise absolutely everything that doesn’t move. Which will effectively bankrupt a lot of businesses and make the present "austerity measures” seem like a mild case of Boy Scout ciggy-card bartering.

    The same applies to Greece as applies to the UK and all the rest of the indebted countries. With the levels of indebtedness they have, you can’t “save” your way out of it, since your effectively strangling any hope of growth by further restricting the disposable income of the population. What the “austerity measures" are meant to do is open ever more public services to private enterprise, with the resultant and depressively regular deterioration, decline in the service levels and rise in prices. It’s never, ever worked before, so why they expect it, against all experience and odds, to work this time is quite beyond me. However, there’s every indication that the Greeks know exactly what’s going on and they’ll tell the Boxheeds to stuff it.

  12. [My bold in your post] That's a generalisation that collapses under close scrutiny and I'd love you to provide some concrete proof of it.

    Otherwise, I don't know when the encounter you mentioned occurred, but it sounds plausible. What can I say? The fact is that the East Germans were fucked over from day one. Just one example of many: if a Wessi wanted to buy/open a company in the former GDR, any business taxes owed in the first two years of trading were offset against likely losses in the same period and were not demanded. If an East German bought/opened exactly the same type of company, taxes were due three months in advance from entry in the commercial register.

    Of the companies in the GDR that were finally offloaded, 91 percent were owned by West Germans, 5 percent by other foreigners (Brits, Japanese, Korean, French, etc) and just 4 percent by East Germans. Which sort of gives you food for thought because the East Germans were quite blatantly unfairly treated and openly discriminated against.

  13. Wordsmith

    Wordsmith LE Book Reviewer

    Here's the Spiegel article that I suspect was the source for the Wail's story.

    German Government Wants to Create Special Economic Zones in Europe - SPIEGEL ONLINE

    Some of this is laudable - indeed I wish the UK would match up schools with local firms and provide decent apprenticeships. They're far better than useless university degrees. But all of this skates past two important points.

    Time Frame

    All this will take a decade or more to do. In the meantime, the financial strains in the euro zone continue to ratchet up. There is no point in having economic plans that will take 10 years to mature if the euro zone has gone into crisis way before then.

    Consequences of Plan

    What happens if the plan works?

    -- Greece becomes an an economic powerhouse. Imports to Greece dry up and she starts to export to the rest of the EU.
    -- The industries in countries that have lost business to Greece get into trouble and require state aid themselves.

    Reduced to its most simplistic, the cake in Europe is only so big. We can change the size of the slices, but we can't (in the short term at least) change the size of the cake. If Greece gets a bigger slice, someone else gets a smaller one.

    But the most immediate problem is the financial problems in the euro zone. Merkel would be better off fixing the immediate problems before she starts on the long term ones.

  14. What the “austerity measures" are meant to do is open ever more public services to private enterprise, with the resultant and depressively regular deterioration, decline in the service levels and rise in prices. It’s never, ever worked before, so why they expect it, against all experience and odds, to work this time is quite beyond me. However, there’s every indication that the Greeks know exactly what’s going on and they’ll tell the Boxheeds to stuff it.

    I was finding a lot of sense in what you are saying, and then you go and let your red petticoats show. Public services cannot exist in any meaningful form without a private sector to pay for them. Austerity probably will result in inefficient state provision being replaced by private enterprise....and a good thing too. Why does that mean a fall in standards? I mean, most nationalised provision ends up existing for its own convenience eventually as we can see all too well in this country.
  15. Merkel and Co want to "do and East Germany" on Greece?

    We're gonna do a Dresden on Athens?

    Fuggin A! When does the bombing start?