Merge the three Services

Mattb

LE
A better analogy would be to look at KBR and Halliburton in the US context.
I'd ask how a contractor on a 6-figure salary can do a job more cheaply than a soldier. Maybe there's some waste somewhere in the chain?
 
I feel like I'm walking through treacle.
What is the operational requirement to have a cop RM commando trained other than being in the RM police section? Would it be just as effective to not have any RM police and just have police.
Ditto!

Commando Forces deem there to be an operational requirement: ergo the RM Police Troop is on the establishment.

Can't put it any simpler, sorry.

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Do we need Commando trained RMP

In fact with the move towards Commando raiding groups away from a Commando Brigade deployment do any of the Loggies / Engineer / Artillery units etc need to be commando trained - is it not sufficient for 3 infantry** brigade to specialise on Arctic warfare and amphibious role.

Or to the contrary does the RM need to be the commando force - would an RM based infantry brigade with an SFSG expanded to 3-4 battalions not be a better fit

**With army providing some if not all of the infantry freeing up the RM to Cdo / ship roles as applicable
They are not Commando-trained RMP - see above!

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Commando Forces deem there to be an operational requirement:
The question is why?
What is the operational requirement that a monkey has to be RM trained.
There might well be one, but I'm struggling to see it.
 
I'd ask how a contractor on a 6-figure salary can do a job more cheaply than a soldier. Maybe there's some waste somewhere in the chain?
If someone is on 100k, his firm will be charging a lot more.
Contractors in most sectors can work out cheaper when its for very short periods of time, when it rolls on for years then someone is trousering a nice little earner.
 

Polyester

Old-Salt
The question had already been raised when I was on the 4th Floor in ‘92. The answer was - in effect - “Yeah, well reasons”.

I went digging and found 49 Admin Branch Group Captains. Compared to 4 Rockape Group Captains. I also found 5,000 RAF admin posts that had a different war role (like NBC shelter marshals) or NO war role at all. Not to mention the wastage in the BBMF or the Queen’s Flight.

We were told “no more sacred cows”. The default option should have been “adopt a profile similar to the Israelis unless you can make an argument for each and every extra post” but at that time the bottom fell out of the pound and we had to leave the ERM. The entire MB staff were told “no more bad news” and zeal for reform faded away.

I use the RAF as an example because that’s the desk I was sat at. The other two services weren’t guilt free. One only has to remember the fuss made by the Household Division over losing their second battalions.

@Truxx is right. But the argument with @stacker1 is a false dichotomy. People should be encouraged to make savings suggestions and even rewarded for them.
However, the only way to significantly slim the defence budget without ‘salami slicing’ is to do less with less people. The only way to do that without destroying operational effectiveness is to properly define the role of defence and equip it accordingly.

Oh, and @Truxx, I’d still vote for you, but please please don’t use ‘genius’ as an adjective!
The default option you mention of adopting the Israeli profile is an astonishing thing for you to say. I accept your point about the overborne personnel without appropriate war roles, that’s obvious, however the idea that we could wholesale become like the Israeli airforce given our foreign policy at the time is just barmy. Fair point about the rest though, we have no need of motorcycle display teams etc etc.

I actually agree with stacker in that there remains an incredible amount of waste across the three services. But equally, Truxx has a point with regard to us bottoming out. If we want a proper defence/offensive force, then it costs. Lots. That’s just the way it is.

The reality is that if it’s decided that the services are to merge then it will happen. Our glorious star ranks will make it happen.
 
What about hackles? Would the navy and air force corps within combined service have to wear those?

Like this?







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I actually agree with stacker in that there remains an incredible amount of waste across the three services. But equally, Truxx has a point with regard to us bottoming out. If we want a proper defence/offensive force, then it costs. Lots. That’s just the way it is.
It might be considered that there is enough money already, its just wasted.
Ever been on a pointless exercise? Thousands of manpower hours wasted, LSA payments, free food, etc
But if the MOD cant sort out the basics like 2 NSNs or ******* cam cream then they are going to flounder on anything bigger.
 

Alamo

LE
I take it you didnt notice Truxx shifting the blame downwards then?

Officers are in charge, they can take the blame, if you had shares in Tesco and they go down due to stupid decisions do you blame the till operator or the board?
Last time I checked, the till operators weren’t bleating about how they could run the company better and how much better it would be if the board just let them.

ORs are good at whining about officers because the buck doesn’t stop with them
 

Polyester

Old-Salt
Last time I checked, the till operators weren’t bleating about how they could run the company better and how much better it would be if the board just let them.

ORs are good at whining about officers because the buck doesn’t stop with them
That’s definitely a two way street.
 
Last time I checked, the till operators weren’t bleating about how they could run the company better and how much better it would be if the board just let them.

ORs are good at whining about officers because the buck doesn’t stop with them
How do you know what the till operators say? Who would you blame for running the company into the ground? The board or the till operator?

If a OR fucks up can he be shafted by those above? If an officer fucks up can he be shafted by an OR?
 

Truxx

LE
To clarify you know **** all about supply? Fair enough, but maybe you shouldnt waffle on about it. I dont advise the infantry on how to attack a position.

You want to ignore cam cream because it a perfectly good example of the Army doing something pointless, that costs money and can be easily rectified and you have not thought about it despite your 34 years in the Army.

You wont say why the Army does it other than it apparently make people feel martial. This is despite the fact the RLC generally doesnt wear cam cream on tour, wont wear cam cream when exercising with proper buildings for accommodation and if you really want to feel like a big brave soldier you can go do an infantry based exercise anytime you like.

Are you mental? Do you need to practise firing your weapon or patching up someone on a trade exercise? I cant believe that someone with 34 years of experience doesnt think that you can practice all the green skills on CT0/1 exercises or on battlecamps.

Right, lads we had a set time limit to set up (and take down) a storehouse/RV/ammo compound in the field, get the computers set up and do some issues, receipts, maintenance and stock taking, oh wait, lets practice some first aid instead, or firing blanks because you'll learn a lot of trade training by doing that :roll:
I am a truckie not a stacker. As such I probably did more supply before you joined than you have actually done in your career. Sitting in a stores counting stuff - sorry stocktaking- is not supply.

Plenty of cam cream was used back in the day by the County Sqn RCT, likewise in BAOR. More latterly I grant you less demand operationally, but better folks than you obviously decided that the minuscule cost was worth it. Probably purely because they knew it would wind you up. For years.

What is the difference between training and trade training? Actually don't answer that. Your trade came from an entity that had forgotten so much basic soldiering that they had to employ specialist military training instructors as a separate trade.

As for answering questions, why could your job in uniform not be done by a contractor?
 

Sgt_Steiner

War Hero
The default option you mention of adopting the Israeli profile is an astonishing thing for you to say. I accept your point about the overborne personnel without appropriate war roles, that’s obvious, however the idea that we could wholesale become like the Israeli airforce given our foreign policy at the time is just barmy. Fair point about the rest though, we have no need of motorcycle display teams etc etc.

I actually agree with stacker in that there remains an incredible amount of waste across the three services. But equally, Truxx has a point with regard to us bottoming out. If we want a proper defence/offensive force, then it costs. Lots. That’s just the way it is.

The reality is that if it’s decided that the services are to merge then it will happen. Our glorious star ranks will make it happen.
Re: Waste & motorcycle display teams;

Not the only one I know - but the RSMDT 'White Helmets' was entirely self funding. A moot point now but was there not an argument for recruitment, KAPE etc?
 

Mattb

LE
It might be considered that there is enough money already, its just wasted.
Ever been on a pointless exercise? Thousands of manpower hours wasted, LSA payments, free food, etc
But if the MOD cant sort out the basics like 2 NSNs or ******* cam cream then they are going to flounder on anything bigger.
Indeed. I don't think that anyone on this thread is arguing for a smaller military budget, just less waste so that it can be spent on important things.
 
Good Golly Miss Molly

Someone went ballistic with the ugly stick :salut::salut:
The Cdr In the middle is now a 1* (and probably a 2* within 12 months).
 

Polyester

Old-Salt
Re: Waste & motorcycle display teams;

Not the only one I know - but the RSMDT 'White Helmets' was entirely self funding. A moot point now but was there not an argument for recruitment, KAPE etc?
Yep. Recruitment and definitely KAPE. But the same goes for red arrows for the RAF as far as I am aware. BBMF was a bit different though. Little justification for that I would think. Personally I’d bin the reds tomorrow purely on the basis that the manpower they use is needed elsewhere and it would be a reality check for most of them.
 
The default option you mention of adopting the Israeli profile is an astonishing thing for you to say. I accept your point about the overborne personnel without appropriate war roles, that’s obvious, however the idea that we could wholesale become like the Israeli airforce given our foreign policy at the time is just barmy. Fair point about the rest though, we have no need of motorcycle display teams etc etc.
I don’t think anyone expected it to look like the IDF. More a case of “why, for the same number of airframes, do you need X, Y and Z?”. If the result is that X is saved and Y is reduced, but Z is binned, then the exercise would have been worth it.

But it’s hard when there’s no clear defence role to use as a benchmark.
 

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