"May questions UK’s top tier military status.."

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Easy. It's better than Tier 2. But not as good as Tier Zero (if there even is a Tier Zero?)

If you think your little niche of the defence enterprise - be it carrier strike, AWACS, cyber, tanks, really shiny breastplates for Trooping the Colour - is important, then its presence, continued funding, and indeed growth and expansion (with promotions and pay rises for the mission-essential personnel so selflessly serving to protect Her Majesty, her heirs and successors) is the hallmark of a modern, capable Tier One military which will be able to deter, coerce, defeat, disrupt, and all the other crunchy effects-based verbs on demand; while its absence will lead to defeat, dismay, destruction, leaving us all rending our garments in the darkness as we weep and gnash our teeth. (I think there was something about locusts in there as well?)
I don't suppose you'd consider sharing your considerable grasp of doctrine with those responsible for funding our defence?
 
Which, for your elucidation, represents about 1 hour and 12 minutes consumption for the NHS. Johnny foreigner is small beer in comparison to an ageing UK populace.
Although if you then add all the other areas translations are given at vast expense - its soon talking real money and worse still its wasted money - because not speaking the language restricts integration and employment prospects.

Compare to France
Dont speak French TS*** Learn or phone a friend who does - Documents are in French or French - The Job centre is French. No translation service available.

What they do have is a number of (French) language courses in order to help get you into work or just integrate.

I doubt the French system is any more expensive than the UKs, particularly as the EU funds some courses, and the money isn't wasted as now having the language skills people are better able to integrate.

I know even suggesting adopting such a system will be met with howls of outrage from the usual suspects and cries of racism discrimination and turning immigrants into 2nd class citizens - But we really do need to tell them where to get off and that long term immigrants will be better off.



***Even Private companies such as Orange aren't (or weren't) allowed to speak English* You could but they were obliged to respond in French - Its my understanding this was legislation not policy but I could be mistaken.

*Im not with Orange now and there may well be a change in rules / Foreign language Line
 
Reduced capability / resources need to be matched to reduced political ambitions. As long as that's understood by the government, matching our defence aims to our resources seems sensible.
If that is not understood, it is dangerous.
 
Although if you then add all the other areas translations are given at vast expense - its soon talking real money and worse still its wasted money - because not speaking the language restricts integration and employment prospects.

Compare to France
Dont speak French TS*** Learn or phone a friend who does - Documents are in French or French - The Job centre is French. No translation service available.

What they do have is a number of (French) language courses in order to help get you into work or just integrate.

I doubt the French system is any more expensive than the UKs, particularly as the EU funds some courses, and the money isn't wasted as now having the language skills people are better able to integrate.

I know even suggesting adopting such a system will be met with howls of outrage from the usual suspects and cries of racism discrimination and turning immigrants into 2nd class citizens - But we really do need to tell them where to get off and that long term immigrants will be better off.



***Even Private companies such as Orange aren't (or weren't) allowed to speak English* You could but they were obliged to respond in French - Its my understanding this was legislation not policy but I could be mistaken.

*Im not with Orange now and there may well be a change in rules / Foreign language Line
Would that be the France that has not integrated multiple groups of people into their communities, and as a result have had large numbers of "homegrown radicals" conduct attacks in mainland France?

How's that working out for them?
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I don't suppose you'd consider sharing your considerable grasp of doctrine with those responsible for funding our defence?
Busy on the procurement side at the moment: happy to weigh in on doctrine if someone feels like paying my day rate...
 
How do you decide what exactly is our business? We have interests all over the world, NATO and Commonwealth membership, the FPDA, UK/FR agreements, a permanent seat at the UN Security Council. We depend on seaborne imports, conflicts elsewhere directly threaten security....
I take your point but maybe we shouldn't continue with some of the above? We have home defence, border security and trade routes to defend, a lot of the rest is optional.
 
Would that be the France that has not integrated multiple groups of people into their communities, and as a result have had large numbers of "homegrown radicals" conduct attacks in mainland France?

How's that working out for them?
As well as it is for us- although thankfully the channel is an impediment to their actions - bit more difficult to cross into Belgium and hide.

Unfortunately the problem isn't immigrants failing to integrate - its their 3rd generation off spring who seem to be determined to de - integrate themselves and blame white people for all their social ills.
This usually results in them destrying their own neighbourhoods and attacking individuals or the property therof they deem traitors ie working Algerians.

The new adult immigrants and the older immigrants do try and are usually well spoken and motivated
Its generally those born in France who behave and act like they belong in a zoo and engage in gang warfare before becoming radicalized - after all they think they are victims and radicalisation plays on this .
I dare say people can see parallels with British communities.

I pass a great deal of time with 1st gen immigrants who like me are on language courses.

Edit - the infiltrated Europe with genuine refugee sin the last 5 - 10 years Jihadi types are another issue - they come pre radicalised and do not wish to integrate
 
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Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
Some very good news at last. Interest rates to go up this year, more the merrier I say, not so good some sort of tax rise also.
Well I hope those with large mortgages and loans factored in that the economy wasn't always going to suit the borrowers. We could be on our way to a repeat of the early 90's.
So where will the chancellor hit the public? National Insurance? Income tax rises 1 % or maybe a reduction in the tax threshold, maybe even both? VAT increase? If we want more spending on defence as well as other services it looks though we have to finally pay for it, no more borrowing, which is good, but why oh why can't we cut Foriegn Aid?
Oh and on the news yet again they were on about the two million plus immigrants mostly on low wages who not only can stay but can also have their close family members join them. Oh well so much for the benefits of leaving Europe, still if you are on minimum wage you are, according to the left contributing.
 
Would that be the France that has not integrated multiple groups of people into their communities, and as a result have had large numbers of "homegrown radicals" conduct attacks in mainland France?

How's that working out for them?
Let's say I decided to plant a load of allelopathic plant life next to my neighbour's expensive flower beds, Upon noticing the unsavoury aggression of said plants and realising I had no control and not thought things out properly, Would it be right to ask those neighbour's to pay for the means to get things under control, let's say AFTER I have prematurely covered both gardens with Lyme or roundup?

What I'm getting at is, Wouldn't it have been the right thing to do to ask first before committing to an expensive and eventual destructive venture? Were the French ever asked if this is what they wanted?
They might have rationally said "what happens if X, Y and Z are a result?" on so on, meaningful politics.
If you do not tackle the root problem, which in my opinion is transparently asking permission of your electorate, secondary problems become unmanageable and attacking the secondary problems compounds the root, and so on. Much like we say here in the U.K.
Didn't these politicians parents teach them to "ask first"

PS - The answer would have been to create a future proof and costed area for the allelopathic plants to grow, keeping the neighbours next door happy and bank balances in check.

Here's a question:

Define what "Tier one military power" actually means.

Answers a postcard, without cheating and looking it up. If you can't do that, then why exactly are you getting excited? I have hope for @jim30 and basically nobody else. I certainly can't do it.

Government has no money + government is not, despite protestations, particularly interested in the military + the military is expensive and needs more money = tensions between the Treasury, No.10, and MoD. This is not a new story. All that article says about this latest round, is that it looks a lot like the MoD got all excited because Gavin Williamson was shooting his lips off, and everyone got their hopes up. The PM and the Treasury are not as keen, and have said so, so now everyone who got excited has had a reality check. This is, in fact, a very, very old story.
I would have thought (being as it's war) that tier 2 is the basic means of defending one's homeland and tier 1 is the ability to take away someone's homeland with p for plenty of resources to do so?
 
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They'll carry on doing it as long as it's in their interests to do so an not a moment longer, I fancy. At the moment, it's consistent with US interests to keep their sheltering hand over Europe, so happy days if your name is Karl-Heinz or Angela.
It is difficult to see how it will ever be inconsistent with US interests. A Russian dominated Europe would not trade with the US in the same way so even if Uncle Sam were to get really pissed off with them, he can't really afford not to.
 
D

Deleted 154930

Guest
That was me, and your suggestion was to use foreign aid to pay for the costs of locking up 'foreign born' criminals. Your idea was fruit-loopy enough to be shot down by several other posters as you didn't seem to comprehend that (a) 'foreign born' was going to include people like pad's brats and (b) billing the aid budget was going to do **** all to deter 'foreign born' criminals.

FFS.

Prisons are paid for out of Home Office/MoJ budgets.

Foreign aid budgets are for, wait for it, foreign aid.

You can adjust those at your leisure; what ministries DON'T do is pick up other people's tabs*

* with the exception of the Cabinet Office, who delighted in billing ministerial travel to the MOD by using the Queen's Flight for ages, though I believe that's been sorted now.
Like I said, triple locked and whoever said, I was trying to deter anybody ? I saw it as a demonstration, that the negative costs of migration, would be deducted from money spent overseas, hardly fruit loopy to me.
One could argue, peacekeeping costs should come out of the foreign office or foreign aid budget.
Aid to civil powers, like fire brigade operations, should come out of the home office budget.
 
It is difficult to see how it will ever be inconsistent with US interests. A Russian dominated Europe would not trade with the US in the same way so even if Uncle Sam were to get really pissed off with them, he can't really afford not to.
That is assuming the US and Europe don't break up in the near future.
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
May clearly doesn't understand the issue. The decision on the nees for tier 1 status is not a MOD one, its a Foreign Office one. Foreign Secretary, what are the foreign policy and diplomatic developments over the next 30 to 50 years that will drive our defence needs?
The trouble is Borris isn't too sure what he plans on doing for breakfast tomorrow let alone what the Foreign policy is for next month, 30 - 50 years.:bounce: Good god no chance of working that out, maybe 5 - 10 years at a push, after all as they say a week is a long time in politics.
 
Lets face it, we fight wars off the back of Defence Reviews, so the next one will be along soon.

The only way we'll get back to anything like the lifestyle we've become accustomed to is if it kicks off in the next 5 years. We'll get an uplift in funding, manning and procurement.
It's not popular with the public, but for Defence; war is good for business.
Which is fine but look at the lead times for manufacturing modern kit. We can't churn out T26/31/45s at the rate we did 'Flower'-class corvettes or Liberty ships. Where's the manufacturing capacity for heavy armour or artillery (or small arms and ammunition, for that matter...)? Where's the uplift in training capacity? It simply isn't there.

You go with what you've got on the day, and this government and several previous are riding/have ridden their chances.
 

Cynical

LE
Book Reviewer
Various points / thoughts in brief after being at a Spectator / BAe systems bash on 100 years of Crab Air.

1. Rt Hon Mark Francois MP (member of Defence Select Committee) stated that the committees view was (a) state on state ware is back (presumably Vlad) (b) aspiration was to increase defence spending to 3% GDP (whihc PMTMs £20Bn to NHS black hole would have achieved).
2. BAe made point that, for the fist time since the 1939-45 live fire FTX there is no one working on designing the next jet. This is serious as if there is no design team working Gen 6 combat aircraft (as it is, apparently, called -effectively Typhoon replacement) then we will lose the ability. One of the major reaosns for the Astute fiasco was that following the completion of Vanguard class we stopped building submarines, so design team went elsewhere.

More genrally

NHS is so brilliant no other country has copied it. Most of reason for out of control costs and lack of income is pensioners who died at (from memory) 68 (i.e. 3 years post retirement) are now dodging coffins for 20+ years, without working for most of them.

One F35 = £100M, or 20 CR2. If you want to stop tanks in (say) Baltic States / Eastern Europe) you can either get an F-35 / Typhoon load of Brimstone through a very challenging air defence environment and deliver or park many panzers (which we actually already have) on the ground and start dishing out the APFSDS

Migrant workers per se are not the problem. But those migrants who ship much of their wages home rather than spend in UK are damaging the UK economy, which is why growth seems sluggish in spite of ever increasing levels of employment.

The biggest existential threat to UK is HoC / EU as that is dramatically altering British way of life, laws etc. We're an island with a poor climate, bolshy population and little iun the way of natural resources. Why would anyone want to invade?

BUT we are also a trading nation, and many of our trade partners (particularly once we're out of EU) are suffering from existential threats. We have an interest in being able to shore up their defenses - not least because we can make mucho wonga out of that (which we can then chose to throw at NHS). One example, the UK Hawk programme cost £900M. Total export sales of Hawk generated £11,000M. Go figure.

General observation on alleged Tiers - back in 1982 no-one rated Argies as near peer. Until they started sinking the RN. (and yes, OK, their Army was poor - but that didn't make the battles on the Falklands easy). As Kipling wrote of the Northwest Frontier "Tow thousand pounds of education felled by a ten ruppe jezail"

My opinion:
1. Throwing money at NHS buys headlines and nothing else.
2. We need an armed forces structure sufficiently large to support UK defence industry (Typhoon supports 100,000 UK jobs).
3. Which does not mean that MOD does not need a thorough purge (and the problem is not the Regimental System - but lets not go there on this thread)
4. There are votes in defence. Having top notch armed forces is actually deeply embedded in the electorate's psyche (except perhaps for snowflakes, but they are a minority)
 

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