Mass Shootings in the US

Ding Dong!

Old-Salt
If they shoot someone before they are an active threat isnt that murder? I'd really like you to provide a source in context if possible.

So having a good guy with a gun needs to have someone shot before they can intervene? Not exactly helpful. What if someone is wandering into a mall with an AR15? Oh yes, open carry is ok in some places . Absolute minefield.
attempting to possess firearms they are not allowed to have by law


Bizarre that criminals don't obey the laws , eh?
Same in all countries, just the general availability of guns in the USA is several orders of magnitude higher than we get. Therefore easier to buy from someone who doesn’t care who they sell it to. No checks person to person I believe? That’s why our crims struggle along with reactivating obsolete guns and Eastern European blank firers. Not to mention the lack of available ammo when they do.
Who knew.Demographics, and population

Australia is 27-28 million
UK is some 67 Million
USA is 332 Million
Check the numbers PER CAPITA. Makes statistics much more worthwhile.
Bless your heart, so our rights are ancient, Amend the second and you can amend the First or the other 10 rights
Isn’t the second already an amendment?? The clue is in the name.

I have always shot since I could hold a gun and owned various types of guns since my teens and taught my own kids so am not anti gun. But I don’t see how American can resolve this issue. You are too far into the hole with gun availability and a cultural attitude to violent resolution that is very different to what I have around me.
 
So having a good guy with a gun needs to have someone shot before they can intervene? Not exactly helpful.
Until a mass shooter starts shooting they haven't committed a crime where lethal force is justified.

What you want is to go around randomly shooting people over what YOU perceive they MIGHT do? well how Gattaca of you



What if someone is wandering into a mall with an AR15? Oh yes, open carry is ok in some places . Absolute minefield.

Same in all countries, just the general availability of guns in the USA is several orders of magnitude higher than we get.
You have 66 million people we have over 322 million do the math

Therefore easier to buy from someone who doesn’t care who they sell it to. No checks person to person I believe? That’s why our crims struggle along with reactivating obsolete guns and Eastern European blank firers. Not to mention the lack of available ammo when they do.
If I sell a US M1917 rifle to a buddy I have known for over 20 years who is a senior Non-Com with a high level clearance, I have committed no crime.

Check the numbers PER CAPITA. Makes statistics much more worthwhile.

Isn’t the second already an amendment?? The clue is in the name.

The clue is they wanted to make sure of the right was enumerated so put it in the Bill of Rights right after freedom of speech and religion


You are too far into the hole with gun availability and a cultural attitude to violent resolution that is very different to what I have around me.
IF anyone bothers to check the perpetrators of Mass Shootings

OVERWHELMINGLY they are Urban Blacks shooting other Urban Blacks. many times a Drug or Gang related angle to the shootings

So it is cultural

Urban Black Culture
 
Until a mass shooter starts shooting they haven't committed a crime where lethal force is justified.
Strangely enough here in the UK, lethal force can be used in self defence before the criminal has actually committed the crime a reasonable person might expect them to do. If you have reasonable belief that someone is about to use lethal force you would be justified in defending yourself and other with proportionate force. I would have thought it would be the same in the US rather than having to wait until you’ve been shot dead before being able to return fire.
Usually, in self defence, you are using proportionate force to stop a crime being committed, not dealing out ex-judicial punishment.
You have 66 million people we have over 322 million do the math
That’s somewhat less than one order of magnitude.
While I don’t think that the US really does suffer multiple orders of magnitude of violent crime, most figures show that it does suffer disproportionately more violent crime than the UK

IF anyone bothers to check the perpetrators of Mass Shootings

OVERWHELMINGLY they are Urban Blacks shooting other Urban Blacks. many times a Drug or Gang related angle to the shootings

So it is cultural

Urban Black Culture
I don’t doubt that there is a problem there*, but there is also a problem with very different demographics deciding that they need to make a mark on the world by killing lots of people.

* though probably not as simple an issue as some would like to believe
 

Ding Dong!

Old-Salt
Until a mass shooter starts shooting they haven't committed a crime where lethal force is justified.

What you want is to go around randomly shooting people over what YOU perceive they MIGHT do? well how Gattaca of you
Hmmm ok. So completely misinterpret what I said. Are you saying that if a bloke walked into a shop and pulled a gun out you would have to wait until he has shot the shopkeeper before doing anything? As that’s what you said.
Where did I say you should randomly shoot people???
You have 66 million people we have over 322 million do the math
Again, you didn’t really read what I said did you?
I stated that you had WAY more availability of guns than here. Size of population has nothing to do with it…. Per capita. Look it up.
If I sell a US M1917 rifle to a buddy I have known for over 20 years who is a senior Non-Com with a high level clearance, I have committed no crime.
Again, answering a different question that the one I asked. Is it not true that an individual can sell a gun to another individual without any checks? If so then there will be plenty who will use that to get a firearm without any scrutiny.

The clue is they wanted to make sure of the right was enumerated so put it in the Bill of Rights right after freedom of speech and religion
As a nation with so many rights surely you have also the right to update/change/amend things as it suits the different society that we live in today rather than that of hundreds of years ago if that is what the population come to think that is needed?


IF anyone bothers to check the perpetrators of Mass Shootings

OVERWHELMINGLY they are Urban Blacks shooting other Urban Blacks. many times a Drug or Gang related angle to the shootings

So it is cultural

Urban Black Culture
I appreciate that gang members etc are often of a minority but that’s just a distraction from the fact that angry young men can easily get hold of a firearm and commit acts of murder and seem to do so a lot more in the USA than anywhere else.
To deny that there is an issue that needs addressing seems to me to be ridiculous but hey, I don’t live there so not my problem.
I’m just an interested observer.

Stay lucky.
 
The clue is they wanted to make sure of the right was enumerated so put it in the Bill of Rights right after freedom of speech and religion
And after Article VI.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

It seems to be saying that States making laws which contravene "the Laws of the United States" are acting unconstitutionality.
 
Hmmm ok. So completely misinterpret what I said. Are you saying that if a bloke walked into a shop and pulled a gun out you would have to wait until he has shot the shopkeeper before doing anything? As that’s what you said.
Where did I say you should randomly shoot people???
Depends, if someone hasn't announced a robbery or started shooting people can YOU name what crime they have committed requiring your planned lethal response?


Again, you didn’t really read what I said did you?
I stated that you had WAY more availability of guns than here. Size of population has nothing to do with it…. Per capita. Look it up.
Oh I read it and again we have many more people than you do and you have a more homogeneous society than we do

Again, answering a different question that the one I asked. Is it not true that an individual can sell a gun to another individual without any checks? If so then there will be plenty who will use that to get a firearm without any scrutiny.

Sure and how is that Illegal? its been done since before the American revolution. I have bought guns from Army buddies and friends for decades. We know each other, serve together, live next to each other. The US Military at least doesnt take in criminals anymore

As a nation with so many rights surely you have also the right to update/change/amend things as it suits the different society that we live in today rather than that of hundreds of years ago if that is what the population come to think that is needed?
Surely You dont comprehend the right to bear arms is not going away no matter how many Johnny Foreigners want it to. 43 U.S. states enshrine the right in their state constitutions as well as the federal bill of rights

IT"S NOT GOING AWAY deal with it

What the UK or Australia wants means nothing to us. IF it works for you hooray, we choose not to follow


I appreciate that gang members etc are often of a minority but that’s just a distraction from the fact that angry young men can easily get hold of a firearm and commit acts of murder and seem to do so a lot more in the USA than anywhere else.


Easily is a perception, I live in such a minority community and try as I might no one has tried to sell me an UZI, Tec-9, AR15 or fotay glock glock today or in the last decade
To deny that there is an issue that needs addressing seems to me to be ridiculous but hey, I don’t live there so not my problem.
I’m just an interested observer.

Stay lucky.
322 Million people in this nation. In my lifetime I have never seen anyone shot in the streets. No one shot at all except while in the Army. Certainly you would say the US Streets are like Beirut in the 70's where according to you I shouldn't be able to open my door without a drive by getting me

Say we have 19K shot a year that is %0.005900621118012422 of the population so you see its doesn't affect the vast majority of Americans, TV news and hysterics aside

Were done here, you haven't changed my mind and yours is not going to accept anything other than a ban
 
Depends, if someone hasn't announced a robbery or started shooting people can YOU name what crime they have committed requiring your planned lethal response?
Here in the UK self defence doesn’t need a crime to be committed, just enough behaviour/action that a reasonable person would believe that a crime is about to committed and action is needed to prevent that.

( As I understand it, I am not a lawyer etc)

In a potential robbery/mass shooting scenario most cases would probably require a warning or communication.
Is “Threatening someone with a lethal weapon” a crime? That would cover quite a few scenarios.
 

Ding Dong!

Old-Salt
Were done here, you haven't changed my mind and yours is not going to accept anything other than a ban
Yes. I get from your replies, though somewhat obtuse, that you have your mind set on your view, and that is your prerogative. You obviously aren’t interested in debate or discussion. You are on one side of the argument and anyone who disagree is on the other.
American politics writ large. Polarised and no room on either side for other views.

I am not actually on the ‘other side’ I’m actually somewhere in the middle. Though I really don’t care what you do there, it has no bearing on my life. I don’t live there.
I was not trying to “change your mind”. As I said, I’m not anti gun so I’m a little suprised that I seem to be being seen as a bleeding heart liberal because I questioned some things.
Anyway, I need to get back to the work day, followed by taking one of my work colleagues out with some of my shotguns to shoot some clays, as he has expressed an interest.
As I said earlier I’m a shooting man and pretty much always have been. Before during and after time in uniform. Different disciplines over the years rifle, pistol and shotgun, so not some Brit unfamiliar and scared of guns, as unfortunately many Americans seem to dismiss us as.

My colleague mentioned above has just applied for a shotgun certificate and unless he has any relevant criminal history or mental health issues then he will be given it. No reason why he wouldn’t.
I don’t have a problem with the fact that he has to go through that check before possessing a shotgun. It doesn’t make us all serfs to a master, it isn’t a perfect system, but it removes a large amount of obvious risk to the rest of the population.

You disagree with my view and that’s fine. Free speech and all that.
 
Yes. I get from your replies, though somewhat obtuse, that you have your mind set on your view, and that is your prerogative. You obviously aren’t interested in debate or discussion. You are on one side of the argument and anyone who disagree is on the other.
American politics writ large. Polarised and no room on either side for other views.

I am not actually on the ‘other side’ I’m actually somewhere in the middle. Though I really don’t care what you do there, it has no bearing on my life. I don’t live there.
I was not trying to “change your mind”. As I said, I’m not anti gun so I’m a little suprised that I seem to be being seen as a bleeding heart liberal because I questioned some things.
Anyway, I need to get back to the work day, followed by taking one of my work colleagues out with some of my shotguns to shoot some clays, as he has expressed an interest.
As I said earlier I’m a shooting man and pretty much always have been. Before during and after time in uniform. Different disciplines over the years rifle, pistol and shotgun, so not some Brit unfamiliar and scared of guns, as unfortunately many Americans seem to dismiss us as.

My colleague mentioned above has just applied for a shotgun certificate and unless he has any relevant criminal history or mental health issues then he will be given it. No reason why he wouldn’t.
I don’t have a problem with the fact that he has to go through that check before possessing a shotgun. It doesn’t make us all serfs to a master, it isn’t a perfect system, but it removes a large amount of obvious risk to the rest of the population.

You disagree with my view and that’s fine. Free speech and all that.
Try to understand the 2nd Holds up the Bill of Rights, without it one party would make the attempt to reduce those of us who don’t agree with them as nothing but Serfs. America is in a touchy position because hard lines have been drawn and sometimes compromise is not possible. These are those times.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
Thing is, we keep hearing about shootings in the USA, but that is a huge country which if there is to be any comparison, should not be matched against a small country like UK, but pan-Europe to get a better perspective. Now that will probably still show the US as an outlier, but the comparison would be much closer.
 
I don't do drill. Basically at 6' I am too tall as most Army drill was created for the midgets of 300 years ago.
However I can understand and admire the skill required for that piece.
In itself it's a staggering performance. The Marine Corps also have such a unit.
Unfortunately it's an over-the-top reminder of all the superfluous mindless bullshit the army wasted our time with.
 
In itself it's a staggering performance. The Marine Corps also have such a unit.
Unfortunately it's an over-the-top reminder of all the superfluous mindless bullshit the army wasted our time with.
I actually did very little drill, but as a tech I always had better things to do.
The best drill clip I have seen was the Paras raising the flag in Stanley 1982.
Understated as hell for very good reasons.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
Only if you don't understand how to compare things per capita.
Is that 'per capita' pan USA with its many different cultures?
 

Eyes_Right

Old-Salt
... As I said, I’m not anti gun so I’m a little suprised that I seem to be being seen as a bleeding heart liberal because I questioned some things.

Ding Dong. You have intentionally or inadvertently struck the mother lode on the US gun debate.

Both sides (let's call them the liberals and the NRA for simplicity sake) have invested millions of dollars into making this a binary issue over many decades. You are either (a) disarming law abiding citizens so they can be subject to Government abuse and over reach, or (b) you are arming gun extremists to commit wanton slaughter and mayhem across the country.

By making this a binary argument, you don't have to worry about nuanced or intelligent conversations about gun control and ensuring people have a legitimate right to firearms access under the Constitution. All you have to do is shout:

"They're coming fer ma Guns!"

or:

"They're going to kill us all"

..and the conversation is immediately ended. No progress, no end to the problem, both sides happy that they have once again, prevented any discourse on the subject.

Good job in spotting the problem, it's currently escaping about 330 million people on a daily basis.
 
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