Mass Shootings in the US

[Cloth bomber]

More to the point, what does it matter? A gun with a serial number is just as dangerous as one without. It's of benefit only after the fact in certain circumstances. I mean, we know where our latest shooter got his guns as they were serialised. Didn't do anyone a hell of a lot of good.

See my post from lunchtime. If everybody looked after ( ie didn’t leave loaded pieces unlocked about the house, in glovebox etc) because they were responsible in law for it if it was used in a crime. You would be on the way to slowing down the swirling pool of easily available stuff for the nutters to get hold of.
it works here , Manchester gangsters have to go to Eastern Europe I’m told for bang sticks as there isn’t much easily got here. For nutters it’s even harder.
I take on board the navel gazing on the second amendment but surely the founding fathers would have considered the responsability side that goes with “ rights” that is where the populace is entitled to,ask for something.
Its not a whole panacea unfortunately, but by god it would be a start, because christ almighty, you really aught to try to do something to help matters.
your country though so whatever.

 

[smartascarrots]

Legally no.
You lose the right to own a firearm if you are a convicted felon.

But the Second Amendment... Shall not be infringed...mah rahts...

Inalienable rights seem to be entirely alienable. Odd, that.

 

[LEGZ30]

See my post from lunchtime. If everybody looked after ( ie didn’t leave loaded pieces unlocked about the house, in glovebox etc) because they were responsible in law. For it if it was used in a crime, you would be on the way to slowing down the swirling pool of easily available stuff for the nutters to get hold of.
it works here , Manchester gangsters have to go to Eastern Europe I’m told for bang sticks as there isn’t much easily got here. For nutters it’s even harder.
I take on board the navel gazing on the second amendment but surely the founding fathers would have considered the responsability side that goes with “ rights” that is where the populace is entitled to,ask for something.
Its not a whole panacea unfortunately, but by god it would be a start, because christ almighty, you really aught to try to do something to help matters.
your country though so whatever.

It works here, to a degree, because we didn't start off with millions of unlicensed guns already in circulation.

The problem with constantly saying 'it worked in X' is that no-one else has ever started off from where the US is now.

 

[smartascarrots]

The problem with constantly saying 'it worked in X' is that no-one else has ever started off from where the US is now

The US didn't start off from where the US is now. It got there through apathy and a hefty dose of cynical politicking.

In the 'Wild West', the supposedly uninfringable right to bear arms was routinely infringed in the cause of public safety and nobody took anybody to the Supreme Court over it.

 

[JustARandomPost]

More to the point, what does it matter? A gun with a serial number is just as dangerous as one without. It's of benefit only after the fact in certain circumstances. I mean, we know where our latest shooter got his guns as they were serialised. Didn't do anyone a hell of a lot of good.

A valid point, a serial number on a weapon is generally only of use after something has gone wrong, it doesn't stop anything going wrong in the first place. NB, I'm not an American, so no skin in this game. Just an observation.

 

[terminal]

A valid point, a serial number on a weapon is generally only of use after something has gone wrong, it doesn't stop anything going wrong in the first place. NB, I'm not an American, so no skin in this game. Just an observation.

The point of traceability is to trace guns used in crime back to the registered owner.

 

[Ding Dong!]

When it comes to the criminal element in London, in particular the gang members. If they had easier access to firearms they would make a decent attempt to match Chicago. You still have a segment of society who kill each other in numbers.

But they don’t have easy access to firearms.

That’s the whole point.

Not that it matters. The availability here is very low. The availability in the US is very high.
No changes in any law will change that fact, that ship has sailed.

I shoot in the he UK, have done since a boy, own firearms and love the sporting shooting that I do but am glad that there is a process to stop the unsuitable here from having that access.

 

[giatttt]

It is worth considering that the average deranged person is not going to get access to mental heathcare until they commit a serious crime.

However suggesting that the state provide mental healthcare foc to those that need it seems to elicit an even more extreme Pavlovian response than promoting gun control.

 

[Goldbricker]

The point of traceability is to trace guns used in crime back to the registered owner.

Except many states don't have registries to check a serial number and before 1968 GCA (8 U.S. Code § 921) Serial numbers were not required on firearms in the USA

Bernie Sanders Vermont as example

2018 10 murders 3 by firearm

16 to purchase long guns
21 for handguns

No Long gun registry
No Handgun registry
No Permits needed to purchase, possess, carry openly or concealed

NFA firearms allowed
Sound Suppressors allowed

They do have a red flag law

 

[gaijin]

@Steamboat
The below list shows what checks gun buyers and owners could have if those checks were limited to the same ones as car owners face?
Do you think that guns should be less regulated than cars?

 

[RaiderBoat]

@Steamboat
The below list shows what checks gun buyers and owners could have if those checks were limited to the same ones as car owners face?
Do you think that guns should be less regulated than cars?

Why liability insurance for each firearm? Why not one policy for all? My homeowners insurance covers my firearms, and my legal defense policy covers everything else.

 

[Goldbricker]

@Steamboat
The below list shows what checks gun buyers and owners could have if those checks were limited to the same ones as car owners face?
Do you think that guns should be less regulated than cars?

Well lets see

OK My Texas Gun Permit would then be good in NYC which currently does not recognize other states permits so like a drivers license my gun permit would be good in all 50 states there goes Chicago and NYC lawmakers fooked

I can drive at 16 so can own a gun at 16

IF my car is used only on my property I don't have to have a DL or Insurance. Therefore on my property I don't need any gun permit renewals or insurance

I dont have restrictions on the type or number of autos or their speed. so I can buy as many guns of any types without restrictions, Hello M1928A1 Thompson


Edit by the way owning and driving an auto is a privilege, gun ownership a right

 

[Steamboat]

@Steamboat
The below list shows what checks gun buyers and owners could have if those checks were limited to the same ones as car owners face?
Do you think that guns should be less regulated than cars?

Training is a great thing.
But in order to get a DL all you have to do is pass the written and road test. Drivers Ed is not mandatory. In order to hunt you have to pass a hunter safety course.

Why would I pay more money for a right?
Do I get to tax you for what you write. Why would criminals be treated more favorably then law abiding citizens? A tax per firearm is a default method of gun control, it is about as idiotic as taxing people for the number of rooms they have in their home.

Who will be setting these health requirements?
If I am going to be subject to stringent requirements like a Commercial driver do I get a class 3 license and the perks that go with it?
You do realize we don’t make residents test on an annual basis. Only if they are recommended by LE or a medical professional.

I am really not interested in having my home inspected. We don’t do that to people with a drivers license. Do I get to inspect your home to make sure you are not a drunk who has the ability to kill others with a vehicle? Do you keep your keys in a safe box when you are partaking? After all you have the ability to use that vehicle while you are under the influence?

Not the best kind of comparison to try and make.

 

[terminal]

(...) Serial numbers were not required on firearms in the USA (...)

Nearly all firearms sold in the US since the late 19th century have had serial numbers. This is not a practical limitation on the use of serial numbers.

As to whether and to what degree the US have adequately implemented the book keeping exercise to implement traceability was not the issue being discussed.

 

[terminal]

Training is a great thing.
But in order to get a DL all you have to do is pass the written and road test. Drivers Ed is not mandatory. In order to hunt you have to pass a hunter safety course.

Why would I pay more money for a right?
Do I get to tax you for what you write. Why would criminals be treated more favorably then law abiding citizens? A tax per firearm is a default method of gun control, it is about as idiotic as taxing people for the number of rooms they have in their home.

Who will be setting these health requirements?
If I am going to be subject to stringent requirements like a Commercial driver do I get a class 3 license and the perks that go with it?
You do realize we don’t make residents test on an annual basis. Only if they are recommended by LE or a medical professional.

I am really not interested in having my home inspected. We don’t do that to people with a drivers license. Do I get to inspect your home to make sure you are not a drunk who has the ability to kill others with a vehicle? Do you keep your keys in a safe box when you are partaking? After all you have the ability to use that vehicle while you are under the influence?

Not the best kind of comparison to try and make.

A couple of ARRSE members run the BlokeontheRange Youtube channel. They have one or more videos on gun laws in Switerzland which would address many of your points. I would suggest that you have a look as I believe it would answer many of your questions.

They can by the way buy and shoot firearms which you are not allowed to have and have made videos using them.

 

[gaijin]

Edit by the way owning and driving an auto is a privilege, gun ownership a right

God given by any chance

 

[Sam The Bam]

God given by any chance

The back of any US Bank notes may answer that question. Hey just saying!

 

[Lardbeast]

Odin is truly a benevolent god.

Still owes me a double headed axe though.

 

[gaijin]

Training is a great thing.
But in order to get a DL all you have to do is pass the written and road test. Drivers Ed is not mandatory. In order to hunt you have to pass a hunter safety course.

Yes, you have to pass a test to drive a car. I see absolutely no reason why the same shouldn't be true of a gun.

Why would I pay more money for a right?
Do I get to tax you for what you write. Why would criminals be treated more favorably then law abiding citizens? A tax per firearm is a default method of gun control, it is about as idiotic as taxing people for the number of rooms they have in their home.

I would apply the same 'logic' to those that you apply to abortion. We don't like it so you can't do it? Why is one fair and the other not? I would say that a women's right to control what she does with her own body is far, far, more of a right than of someone to own an AR-15 or similar.

You get taxed per car, or by house, or for every beer you buy, or for cigarettes - why not for owning a gun?

Who will be setting these health requirements?
If I am going to be subject to stringent requirements like a Commercial driver do I get a class 3 license and the perks that go with it?
You do realize we don’t make residents test on an annual basis. Only if they are recommended by LE or a medical professional.

Who sets the health requirements for pilots' licences or drivers' licences? If you are deemed unfit to control a machine that may be used, indavertently or not, to kill someone else then why shouldn't the same criteria be applied to guns?

If you want an abortion, you’ll meet with your nurse or doctor, or health center counselor to talk about whether abortion is the right decision for you, and what your options are. 27 states require that individuals seeking abortion wait 18–72 hours after mandated counseling before having an abortion, and 14 states require that counseling be done in-person, creating a two-visit minimum to obtain care. I would apply the same to guns.

I am really not interested in having my home inspected. We don’t do that to people with a drivers license. Do I get to inspect your home to make sure you are not a drunk who has the ability to kill others with a vehicle? Do you keep your keys in a safe box when you are partaking? After all you have the ability to use that vehicle while you are under the influence?

In the UK the police can, and do, inspect gun owners' houses to ensure that they have a proper gun cabinet and security etc. so, yes, I have no problem at all with that. You may have the 'right' to own a gun but with rights come responsibilities - its one of those things that you, or should, learn in adulthood.

Not the best kind of comparison to try and make.

 

[gaijin]

Well lets see

OK My Texas Gun Permit would then be good in NYC which currently does not recognize other states permits so like a drivers license my gun permit would be good in all 50 states there goes Chicago and NYC lawmakers fooked

I can drive at 16 so can own a gun at 16

IF my car is used only on my property I don't have to have a DL or Insurance. Therefore on my property I don't need any gun permit renewals or insurance

I dont have restrictions on the type or number of autos or their speed. so I can buy as many guns of any types without restrictions, Hello M1928A1 Thompson


Edit by the way owning and driving an auto is a privilege, gun ownership a right

On that basis you have no objection to the right to abortion as the current argument is that it is a decision that should be taken at state level, hence the RvW controversy.
Each state has the decision whether or not to recognise another state's driving licence, so they can make that decision on guns also.