Mass Shootings in the US

I have read that American police departments who have been getting these things have found them to be white elephants due to the cost of maintaining them.
They are expensive, and not very practical in urban settings. They stand out. In the rural parts you better be careful driving them off paved roads least you get bogged down. Up armored hummers are a better fit. Small town cop shops don’t have the resources of the US Military, which seems to be over looked in an effort to get the cool toys.
 
Problem is that the armored HMMWVs which are being released, like M1114s, are just plain clapped out. Same with the M1117 armored cars. Either those or the MRAPs are going to be expensive, but in fairness, the MRAPs are far better suited to police use than HMMWVs are. The MRAP has room for a stretcher, rescuees or a whole swat team, and makes a pretty good bullet blocker for a few people at a time. If you look at the vehicles entering police service in places like France and Germany, they are closer to MRAP than Hummer.

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In fairness, I don’t think that not standing out is much of a concern, and American roads tend to be a lot bigger than European ones. Have you seen the size of our fire trucks?
 
Problem is that the armored HMMWVs which are being released, like M1114s, are just plain clapped out. Same with the M1117 armored cars. Either those or the MRAPs are going to be expensive, but in fairness, the MRAPs are far better suited to police use than HMMWVs are. The MRAP has room for a stretcher, rescuees or a whole swat team, and makes a pretty good bullet blocker for a few people at a time. If you look at the vehicles entering police service in places like France and Germany, they are closer to MRAP than Hummer.

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In fairness, I don’t think that not standing out is much of a concern, and American roads tend to be a lot bigger than European ones. Have you seen the size of our fire trucks?
I have, but once you get into a rural setting things stick out. Getting an MRAP stuck 200 yards out from your suspects home won't do you much good either if they have clear fields of fire which on the prairie is a very good possibility. They are overkill for most scenarios. If my local LE won't even dismount from their vehicles to search for a suspected shooter, I am not going to be inclined to support their efforts to acquire more gear that will sit idle or be deployed for the wrong reasons.
 
They are expensive, and not very practical in urban settings. They stand out. In the rural parts you better be careful driving them off paved roads least you get bogged down. Up armored hummers are a better fit. Small town cop shops don’t have the resources of the US Military, which seems to be over looked in an effort to get the cool toys.
I would imagine that the weight and height on smaller bridges will be a problem as well in rural areas.

The question that really comes to mind though is why a city of 65,000 thinks they need 2 of these. In the news story the example the police gave for when they could have used it was from 8 years ago. Even in that case I'm a bit dubious about the wisdom of relying on an armoured truck to protect you from exploding propane tanks (and what would you do when you got there?)
 
I would imagine that the weight and height on smaller bridges will be a problem as well in rural areas.

The question that really comes to mind though is why a city of 65,000 thinks they need 2 of these. In the news story the example the police gave for when they could have used it was from 8 years ago. Even in that case I'm a bit dubious about the wisdom of relying on an armoured truck to protect you from exploding propane tanks (and what would you do when you got there?)

Because the military is giving it away, and they feel the need to have the kit. In case they need evac a wounded officer or hostages..... Minus the fact that is a glorified expensive personal carrier, one still has to dismount from the damn thing in order to do anything. The militarization of American law enforcement is scary at times.
 
I have, but once you get into a rural setting things stick out. Getting an MRAP stuck 200 yards out from your suspects home won't do you much good either if they have clear fields of fire which on the prairie is a very good possibility. They are overkill for most scenarios. If my local LE won't even dismount from their vehicles to search for a suspected shooter, I am not going to be inclined to support their efforts to acquire more gear that will sit idle or be deployed for the wrong reasons.
Well, isn’t that the compromise? Before the MRAPs the cheap options were generally ex-WW2 M20s, ex Vietnam V150s if you could find them, re-tracked M114 or M113 vehicles (to include the high roof M577) or expensive purpose built vehicles like the Bearcat. The US Army went completely away from wheeled armor, so tracks were the only surplus going. But even with the simplified maintenance and reduced noise, it really isn’t a great response vehicle.
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I mean, yes, it will go off-road well enough, but response times are going to be slower than a wheeled vehicle, and I can’t see one of these things responding to, for example, the Stockton robbery a couple years ago which turned into a high speed rolling shootout which disabled 13 cruisers and one of the two dispatched Bearcats.

And yes, I get that an RG isn’t the best off-road, but frankly, neither is an M1114, there’s a reason the M1151 came out and they aren’t being discarded in numbers yet, even accepting their cramped nature.

If your police won’t dismount i’m sorry for you, but their processes don’t affect the cost of vehicles or their relative potential utility.
 
The militarization of American law enforcement is scary at times.
It might have something to do with trying to enforce laws on a heavily armed population that have been taught to fear government and authority?
 
Well, isn’t that the compromise? Before the MRAPs the cheap options were generally ex-WW2 M20s, ex Vietnam V150s if you could find them, re-tracked M114 or M113 vehicles (to include the high roof M577) or expensive purpose built vehicles like the Bearcat. The US Army went completely away from wheeled armor, so tracks were the only surplus going. But even with the simplified maintenance and reduced noise, it really isn’t a great response vehicle.
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I mean, yes, it will go off-road well enough, but response times are going to be slower than a wheeled vehicle, and I can’t see one of these things responding to, for example, the Stockton robbery a couple years ago which turned into a high speed rolling shootout which disabled 13 cruisers and one of the two dispatched Bearcats.

And yes, I get that an RG isn’t the best off-road, but frankly, neither is an M1114, there’s a reason the M1151 came out and they aren’t being discarded in numbers yet, even accepting their cramped nature.

If your police won’t dismount i’m sorry for you, but their processes don’t affect the cost of vehicles or their relative potential utility.
The problem is this is Wyoming and not California. Response times in parts of this state could very well be in hours regardless of what is being used. The Hummers (M1114) are more than enough to preform any sort of rescue under fire or transport officers. With as minimally used as the MRAP's are here, wear and tear won't be an issue.

I just read up on that Stockton robbery, 33 cops fired over 600 rounds..... and still killed a hostage.
 
Problem is that the armored HMMWVs which are being released, like M1114s, are just plain clapped out. Same with the M1117 armored cars. Either those or the MRAPs are going to be expensive, but in fairness, the MRAPs are far better suited to police use than HMMWVs are. The MRAP has room for a stretcher, rescuees or a whole swat team, and makes a pretty good bullet blocker for a few people at a time. If you look at the vehicles entering police service in places like France and Germany, they are closer to MRAP than Hummer.

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Hmm....

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:mrgreen:
 
Because the military is giving it away, and they feel the need to have the kit. In case they need evac a wounded officer or hostages..... Minus the fact that is a glorified expensive personal carrier, one still has to dismount from the damn thing in order to do anything. The militarization of American law enforcement is scary at times.

They get them very cheap through the DoD's 1033 Program

$500,000 surplus MRAPS cost a PD $12,000 ready to rock and roll repainted in PD colours
 
It might have something to do with trying to enforce laws on a heavily armed population that have been taught to fear government and authority?
With respect, no. Incidents like Stockton above, or the North Hollywood Shootout way back in the day which started the whole SWAT business are not militia groups who fear authority. They are common criminals who instead lack any respect or fear of the authority or just believe that it’s a good idea to shoot cops who are trying to arrest them. The Norco shootout was a simple bank robbery, which saw 33 cruisers knocked out, and a helicopter shot down. Further, just as in Stockton, they were willing to ambush police, not just try to get away.

And this is before one considers deliberate shooting actions. A Bataclan type event has not happened here yet, but if it does, I would rather the police were equipped to deal with it.

I do have my own issues with the direction US policing has taken, such as the whole “civilian” thing where they distinguish themselves from the population at large, but the equipment is not one of them.
 
With respect, no. Incidents like Stockton above, or the North Hollywood Shootout way back in the day which started the whole SWAT business are not militia groups who fear authority. They are common criminals who instead lack any respect or fear of the authority or just believe that it’s a good idea to shoot cops who are trying to arrest them. The Norco shootout was a simple bank robbery, which saw 33 cruisers knocked out, and a helicopter shot down. Further, just as in Stockton, they were willing to ambush police, not just try to get away.

And this is before one considers deliberate shooting actions. A Bataclan type event has not happened here yet, but if it does, I would rather the police were equipped to deal with it.

I do have my own issues with the direction US policing has taken, such as the whole “civilian” thing where they distinguish themselves from the population at large, but the equipment is not one of them.
So you don't like the us vs them mindset that some forces seem to display I gather? I think it is a combination of the mentality and equipment that they can get which just reinforces the need to use it or lose it.
 
With respect, no. Incidents like Stockton above, or the North Hollywood Shootout way back in the day which started the whole SWAT business are not militia groups who fear authority. They are common criminals who instead lack any respect or fear of the authority or just believe that it’s a good idea to shoot cops who are trying to arrest them. The Norco shootout was a simple bank robbery, which saw 33 cruisers knocked out, and a helicopter shot down. Further, just as in Stockton, they were willing to ambush police, not just try to get away.

And this is before one considers deliberate shooting actions. A Bataclan type event has not happened here yet, but if it does, I would rather the police were equipped to deal with it. (...)
The problems that I recall reading about giving away surplus military heavy vehicles like this is that a lot of it ended up going to small towns and rural municipalities who didn't have the budget to maintain and repair them, nor the budget or manpower to train and equip the sort of personnel that would know how to make use of them in the sort of situations that they could be useful in. It's not like they're a lot of use when handing out speeding tickets. They just saw "free stuff" and didn't think beyond that.

Larger cities can have reason to have this sort of equipment and have the budget for it, but they mainly seem to go for stuff that was purpose built for the police market. A lot of those seem to be built on medium duty commercial truck chassis (e.g. Ford 550) to make routine parts and service simpler and more readily available.

For smaller towns perhaps having state level resources would make more sense. I'm talking about personnel as well as equipment here. I'm not sure how that is organized in the US though.
 

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