Mass Shootings in the US

Let’s agree you have no 2nd amendment right in the UK, ‘God given’ or enshrined in any bill of Rights. Americans do... and tragic incidents like yesterday shouldn’t mean millions of law abiding citizens should lose a right, because of one monumental tit.
Been more than one monumental tit.
 
Sadly that didn't work in the case of Sandy Hook, where the shit responsible sneaked into his mother's bedroom, took her PDW from her nightstand, shot her in the head & took her keys to open the gun safe.

You cannot legislate to prevent the actions of someone with a broken brain (something recognised in the aftermath of Derrick Bird's "rampage"). However, you can legislate to fix the broken mental health system in the US.
You can very easily legislate to prevent events like the massacre in Sandy Hook. Compare US and UK legislation:-

In the UK you can't own personal defence weapons other than in exceptional circumstances in Northern Ireland.

In the UK you can't own a semi-automatic rifle under any circumstances.

In the UK you cannot own firearms and leave them unsecured. They need to be locked in a safe when they're not in use. That alone would have spared the lives of the toddlers at Sandy Hook as well as those who are shot dead on a weekly basis by young children who come across their parents' guns.

In the UK you cannot be in possession of unlimited amounts of ammunition.

In the UK you cannot have access to firearms if you have a history of any significant mental illness.

In the UK, the police can and will deny you a licence if you share a house with someone on the severe mental illness register.

Any one of the facts above would have prevented the Sandy Hook massacre had it been implemented in US legislation. The list below shows the firearms and ammunition that was recovered from the Lanza house. I've served on warships that don't carry that much ammunition.

Sandy Hook happened because Nancy Lanza was a gun nut and she allowed her son access to an arsenal of firearms despite his catastrophic mental illness. FFS he even had a gun safe in his bedroom.

Rates of mental illness don't differ between the US and the UK. Modes of treatment don't differ either. What differs is that crazy people have a constitutional right to possess firearms in America.

Here's what the Lanza's kept in their house for "personal defence"

Izhmash Saiga 12-gauge semiautomatic shotgun
Bushmaster Model XM15-E2S .223-caliber semiautomatic rifle
Glock 20 10mm semiautomatic handgun
Sig Sauer P226 9mm semiautomatic handgun
Savage Mark II bolt-action .22-caliber rifle
Enfield Albian bolt-action .323-caliber rifle
Volcanic .22-caliber starter pistol

Two 12-gauge shotgun magazines
10 30-round .223 magazines
6 30-round 9mm magazines
6 30-round 10mm magazines
Clear plastic Ramline magazine for an AR-15
Three AGP Arms lnc. 12-gauge shotgun magazines (empty)
One Promag 20 round 12-gauge drum magazine
One MDArms 20 round 12-gauge drum magazine
Two AGP Arms lnc. 12-gauge shotgun magazines, taped together, each with 10 rounds
Surefire GunMag magazine with 8 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
AGP Arms Inc. Gen 2 12-gauge shotgun magazine
Magazine with 10 rounds of .223-caliber bullets

20 12-gauge shotgun rounds
301 rounds of .233-caliber ammunition
116 rounds of .9mm ammunition
90 rounds of 10mm ammunition
Five Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells, cut open, with buckshot
White plastic bag containing 30 Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells
Box with 20 Estate 12-gauge shotgun shells
Four boxes of SB buckshot 12-gauge, 40 rounds
Box of Lightfield 12-gauge slugs
Six “Winchester” 9 pellet buckshot shells (12-gauge)
Two Remington 12-gauge slugs
Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
10 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
Planters can with numerous .22 and .45 caliber bullets
Wooden box with numerous rounds of Winchester .45-caliber bullets
Two boxes of PPU .45 caliber auto., 100 rounds
Box of “Fiocchi” .45-caliber auto with 48 rounds
Box of Magtech .45-caliber ACP with 30 rounds
Tan bag containing numerous Blazer .45-caliber bullets
Box containing 400 rounds of Winchester Wildcat .22-caliber bullets
Two boxes of .22-caliber long rifle Blazer, 100 rounds
80 rounds of CCI .22-caliber long rifle
31 .22-caliber rounds
Small plastic bag containing numerous .22 caliber bullets
Full box of Blazer .22 caliber long rifle, 50 rounds
Box of 20 Prvi Partizan .30-30 British rifle cartridges
Box of 20 Federal .303 British rifle cartridges
Box of PPU .303-caliber British cartridges with 9 rounds
Box of 20 rounds of Remington .223-caliber
Three Winchester .223-caliber rifle rounds
Six boxes of PMC .223-caliber, 20 rounds each
Three boxes of Blazer 40-caliber S&W, 150 rounds
Two boxes of Winchester 5.56mm, 40 rounds
Two boxes of Underwood 10mm auto, 100 rounds
Box of Underwood 10mm auto with 34 rounds
130 rounds of Lawman 9mm luger in 3 boxes
Box of miscellaneous 9mm rounds, 29 total
Two Win 9mm rounds
Small box of miscellaneous rounds
 
You can very easily legislate to prevent events like the massacre in Sandy Hook. Compare US and UK legislation:-

In the UK you can't own personal defence weapons other than in exceptional circumstances in Northern Ireland.

In the UK you can't own a semi-automatic rifle under any circumstances.

In the UK you cannot own firearms and leave them unsecured. They need to be locked in a safe when they're not in use. That alone would have spared the lives of the toddlers at Sandy Hook as well as those who are shot dead on a weekly basis by young children who come across their parents' guns.

In the UK you cannot be in possession of unlimited amounts of ammunition.

In the UK you cannot have access to firearms if you have a history of any significant mental illness.

In the UK, the police can and will deny you a licence if you share a house with someone on the severe mental illness register.

Any one of the facts above would have prevented the Sandy Hook massacre had it been implemented in US legislation. The list below shows the firearms and ammunition that was recovered from the Lanza house. I've served on warships that don't carry that much ammunition.

Sandy Hook happened because Nancy Lanza was a gun nut and she allowed her son access to an arsenal of firearms despite his catastrophic mental illness. FFS he even had a gun safe in his bedroom.

Rates of mental illness don't differ between the US and the UK. Modes of treatment don't differ either. What differs is that crazy people have a constitutional right to possess firearms in America.

Here's what the Lanza's kept in their house for "personal defence"

Izhmash Saiga 12-gauge semiautomatic shotgun
Bushmaster Model XM15-E2S .223-caliber semiautomatic rifle
Glock 20 10mm semiautomatic handgun
Sig Sauer P226 9mm semiautomatic handgun
Savage Mark II bolt-action .22-caliber rifle
Enfield Albian bolt-action .323-caliber rifle
Volcanic .22-caliber starter pistol

Two 12-gauge shotgun magazines
10 30-round .223 magazines
6 30-round 9mm magazines
6 30-round 10mm magazines
Clear plastic Ramline magazine for an AR-15
Three AGP Arms lnc. 12-gauge shotgun magazines (empty)
One Promag 20 round 12-gauge drum magazine
One MDArms 20 round 12-gauge drum magazine
Two AGP Arms lnc. 12-gauge shotgun magazines, taped together, each with 10 rounds
Surefire GunMag magazine with 8 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
AGP Arms Inc. Gen 2 12-gauge shotgun magazine
Magazine with 10 rounds of .223-caliber bullets

20 12-gauge shotgun rounds
301 rounds of .233-caliber ammunition
116 rounds of .9mm ammunition
90 rounds of 10mm ammunition
Five Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells, cut open, with buckshot
White plastic bag containing 30 Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells
Box with 20 Estate 12-gauge shotgun shells
Four boxes of SB buckshot 12-gauge, 40 rounds
Box of Lightfield 12-gauge slugs
Six “Winchester” 9 pellet buckshot shells (12-gauge)
Two Remington 12-gauge slugs
Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
10 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
Planters can with numerous .22 and .45 caliber bullets
Wooden box with numerous rounds of Winchester .45-caliber bullets
Two boxes of PPU .45 caliber auto., 100 rounds
Box of “Fiocchi” .45-caliber auto with 48 rounds
Box of Magtech .45-caliber ACP with 30 rounds
Tan bag containing numerous Blazer .45-caliber bullets
Box containing 400 rounds of Winchester Wildcat .22-caliber bullets
Two boxes of .22-caliber long rifle Blazer, 100 rounds
80 rounds of CCI .22-caliber long rifle
31 .22-caliber rounds
Small plastic bag containing numerous .22 caliber bullets
Full box of Blazer .22 caliber long rifle, 50 rounds
Box of 20 Prvi Partizan .30-30 British rifle cartridges
Box of 20 Federal .303 British rifle cartridges
Box of PPU .303-caliber British cartridges with 9 rounds
Box of 20 rounds of Remington .223-caliber
Three Winchester .223-caliber rifle rounds
Six boxes of PMC .223-caliber, 20 rounds each
Three boxes of Blazer 40-caliber S&W, 150 rounds
Two boxes of Winchester 5.56mm, 40 rounds
Two boxes of Underwood 10mm auto, 100 rounds
Box of Underwood 10mm auto with 34 rounds
130 rounds of Lawman 9mm luger in 3 boxes
Box of miscellaneous 9mm rounds, 29 total
Two Win 9mm rounds
Small box of miscellaneous rounds
And yet in Northern Ireland where over 10,000 people are walking around with a personal protection weapon and 50,000 other people own firearms (the highest rate in the UK) we still haven't had an active shooter incident. On the Mainland after they banned semi-autos then banned handguns they had another active shooter incident using a shotgun and a .22 rifle.

I would also like to see one of these famous videos of heavily armed men walking into schools and no-one being able to do anything about it. You keep telling people these videos exist but yet no-one else has ever seen one.
 
Let’s not forget this ‘kid’ was 17.
Wouldn't that make him legally a minor in that state? His parents' responsibility, in other words.
 
And yet in Northern Ireland where over 10,000 people are walking around with a personal protection weapon and 50,000 other people own firearms (the highest rate in the UK) we still haven't had an active shooter incident. On the Mainland after they banned semi-autos then banned handguns they had another active shooter incident using a shotgun and a .22 rifle.

I would also like to see one of these famous videos of heavily armed men walking into schools and no-one being able to do anything about it. You keep telling people these videos exist but yet no-one else has ever seen one.
And in the United States? 2 school shootings a week and 100 people die by firearms in an average day. What do you think is the cause of the difference between the US and the UK? It can't all be down to accidental discharges by @Oddbod
 
And in the United States? 2 school shootings a week and 100 people die by firearms in an average day. What do you think is the cause of the difference between the US and the UK? It can't all be down to accidental discharges by @Oddbod
There are a lot of differences in culture, mentality and expectations. Which is why people in other parts of the world can own firearms without anything like the same rate of active shooter incidents.

In the 1960's US schools had no restrictions on bringing guns to school. In rural areas kids brought their rifles to school so they could hunt on the way home, in some areas some schools had their own ranges so kids could bring their guns to school and shoot and this was a time when there were guns in a higher percentage of households than there are now. Active shooter incidents were almost unheard of. As the Sheriff in this video says; it isn't the guns that have changed, society has changed.

Sheriff Blames Society, Media for School Shooting: ‘The Gun Didn’t Change. We did’ | Barney Outdoor Outfitters

The idea that changing laws on firearms ownership will fix everything doesn't just ignore the practicality of removing tens of millions of firearms from a society where no-one actually knows who owns what but it also completely ignores the fact that it is illegal to import and/or sell heroin and fentanyl in the US. It is illegal to re-sell prescription opiates and yet more Americans are being killed by opiate overdoses every day than by firearms.

If we want to make a real difference to active shooter incidents we should start with the one thing that every single serious study into active shooter motivations agrees on, stop making them famous.
 
The Lieutenant Governor in Texas sounds like he's off on a cause, but actually he's got a couple of good points.

Violent video games (and not reported here but violent media especially those who portray violent characters in film and TV), broken families, irresponsible gun owners, all contribute to the "culture" of guns and the seeming lack of consequences.

Not sure where removing religion from schools and the number of abortions fit in, but he seems to speak well

Texas lieutenant governor blames abortions and violent video games for school shootings, but not guns
 
You can very easily legislate to prevent events like the massacre in Sandy Hook. Compare US and UK legislation:-

In the UK you can't own personal defence weapons other than in exceptional circumstances in Northern Ireland.

In the UK you can't own a semi-automatic rifle under any circumstances.

In the UK you cannot own firearms and leave them unsecured. They need to be locked in a safe when they're not in use. That alone would have spared the lives of the toddlers at Sandy Hook as well as those who are shot dead on a weekly basis by young children who come across their parents' guns.

In the UK you cannot be in possession of unlimited amounts of ammunition.

In the UK you cannot have access to firearms if you have a history of any significant mental illness.

In the UK, the police can and will deny you a licence if you share a house with someone on the severe mental illness register.

Any one of the facts above would have prevented the Sandy Hook massacre had it been implemented in US legislation. The list below shows the firearms and ammunition that was recovered from the Lanza house. I've served on warships that don't carry that much ammunition.

Sandy Hook happened because Nancy Lanza was a gun nut and she allowed her son access to an arsenal of firearms despite his catastrophic mental illness. FFS he even had a gun safe in his bedroom.

Rates of mental illness don't differ between the US and the UK. Modes of treatment don't differ either. What differs is that crazy people have a constitutional right to possess firearms in America.

Here's what the Lanza's kept in their house for "personal defence"

Izhmash Saiga 12-gauge semiautomatic shotgun
Bushmaster Model XM15-E2S .223-caliber semiautomatic rifle
Glock 20 10mm semiautomatic handgun
Sig Sauer P226 9mm semiautomatic handgun
Savage Mark II bolt-action .22-caliber rifle
Enfield Albian bolt-action .323-caliber rifle
Volcanic .22-caliber starter pistol

Two 12-gauge shotgun magazines
10 30-round .223 magazines
6 30-round 9mm magazines
6 30-round 10mm magazines
Clear plastic Ramline magazine for an AR-15
Three AGP Arms lnc. 12-gauge shotgun magazines (empty)
One Promag 20 round 12-gauge drum magazine
One MDArms 20 round 12-gauge drum magazine
Two AGP Arms lnc. 12-gauge shotgun magazines, taped together, each with 10 rounds
Surefire GunMag magazine with 8 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
AGP Arms Inc. Gen 2 12-gauge shotgun magazine
Magazine with 10 rounds of .223-caliber bullets

20 12-gauge shotgun rounds
301 rounds of .233-caliber ammunition
116 rounds of .9mm ammunition
90 rounds of 10mm ammunition
Five Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells, cut open, with buckshot
White plastic bag containing 30 Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells
Box with 20 Estate 12-gauge shotgun shells
Four boxes of SB buckshot 12-gauge, 40 rounds
Box of Lightfield 12-gauge slugs
Six “Winchester” 9 pellet buckshot shells (12-gauge)
Two Remington 12-gauge slugs
Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
10 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
Planters can with numerous .22 and .45 caliber bullets
Wooden box with numerous rounds of Winchester .45-caliber bullets
Two boxes of PPU .45 caliber auto., 100 rounds
Box of “Fiocchi” .45-caliber auto with 48 rounds
Box of Magtech .45-caliber ACP with 30 rounds
Tan bag containing numerous Blazer .45-caliber bullets
Box containing 400 rounds of Winchester Wildcat .22-caliber bullets
Two boxes of .22-caliber long rifle Blazer, 100 rounds
80 rounds of CCI .22-caliber long rifle
31 .22-caliber rounds
Small plastic bag containing numerous .22 caliber bullets
Full box of Blazer .22 caliber long rifle, 50 rounds
Box of 20 Prvi Partizan .30-30 British rifle cartridges
Box of 20 Federal .303 British rifle cartridges
Box of PPU .303-caliber British cartridges with 9 rounds
Box of 20 rounds of Remington .223-caliber
Three Winchester .223-caliber rifle rounds
Six boxes of PMC .223-caliber, 20 rounds each
Three boxes of Blazer 40-caliber S&W, 150 rounds
Two boxes of Winchester 5.56mm, 40 rounds
Two boxes of Underwood 10mm auto, 100 rounds
Box of Underwood 10mm auto with 34 rounds
130 rounds of Lawman 9mm luger in 3 boxes
Box of miscellaneous 9mm rounds, 29 total
Two Win 9mm rounds
Small box of miscellaneous rounds
......and this was only one of many gun owners, multiply this across all the USA, and the on-going murder of school kids, and innocent shoppers will continue until the 2nd amendment is revoked,....so.....not any time soon.
 
Sadly that didn't work in the case of Sandy Hook, where the shit responsible sneaked into his mother's bedroom, took her PDW from her nightstand, shot her in the head & took her keys to open the gun safe.

You cannot legislate to prevent the actions of someone with a broken brain (something recognised in the aftermath of Derrick Bird's "rampage"). However, you can legislate to fix the broken mental health system in the US.
You can very easily legislate to prevent events like the massacre in Sandy Hook. Compare US and UK legislation:-

In the UK you can't own personal defence weapons other than in exceptional circumstances in Northern Ireland.

In the UK you can't own a semi-automatic rifle under any circumstances.

In the UK you cannot own firearms and leave them unsecured. They need to be locked in a safe when they're not in use. That alone would have spared the lives of the toddlers at Sandy Hook as well as those who are shot dead on a weekly basis by young children who come across their parents' guns.

In the UK you cannot be in possession of unlimited amounts of ammunition.

In the UK you cannot have access to firearms if you have a history of any significant mental illness.

In the UK, the police can and will deny you a licence if you share a house with someone on the severe mental illness register.

Any one of the facts above would have prevented the Sandy Hook massacre had it been implemented in US legislation. The list below shows the firearms and ammunition that was recovered from the Lanza house. I've served on warships that don't carry that much ammunition.

Sandy Hook happened because Nancy Lanza was a gun nut and she allowed her son access to an arsenal of firearms despite his catastrophic mental illness. FFS he even had a gun safe in his bedroom.

Rates of mental illness don't differ between the US and the UK. Modes of treatment don't differ either. What differs is that crazy people have a constitutional right to possess firearms in America.

Here's what the Lanza's kept in their house for "personal defence"

Izhmash Saiga 12-gauge semiautomatic shotgun
Bushmaster Model XM15-E2S .223-caliber semiautomatic rifle
Glock 20 10mm semiautomatic handgun
Sig Sauer P226 9mm semiautomatic handgun
Savage Mark II bolt-action .22-caliber rifle
Enfield Albian bolt-action .323-caliber rifle
Volcanic .22-caliber starter pistol

Two 12-gauge shotgun magazines
10 30-round .223 magazines
6 30-round 9mm magazines
6 30-round 10mm magazines
Clear plastic Ramline magazine for an AR-15
Three AGP Arms lnc. 12-gauge shotgun magazines (empty)
One Promag 20 round 12-gauge drum magazine
One MDArms 20 round 12-gauge drum magazine
Two AGP Arms lnc. 12-gauge shotgun magazines, taped together, each with 10 rounds
Surefire GunMag magazine with 8 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
AGP Arms Inc. Gen 2 12-gauge shotgun magazine
Magazine with 10 rounds of .223-caliber bullets

20 12-gauge shotgun rounds
301 rounds of .233-caliber ammunition
116 rounds of .9mm ammunition
90 rounds of 10mm ammunition
Five Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells, cut open, with buckshot
White plastic bag containing 30 Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells
Box with 20 Estate 12-gauge shotgun shells
Four boxes of SB buckshot 12-gauge, 40 rounds
Box of Lightfield 12-gauge slugs
Six “Winchester” 9 pellet buckshot shells (12-gauge)
Two Remington 12-gauge slugs
Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
10 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
Planters can with numerous .22 and .45 caliber bullets
Wooden box with numerous rounds of Winchester .45-caliber bullets
Two boxes of PPU .45 caliber auto., 100 rounds
Box of “Fiocchi” .45-caliber auto with 48 rounds
Box of Magtech .45-caliber ACP with 30 rounds
Tan bag containing numerous Blazer .45-caliber bullets
Box containing 400 rounds of Winchester Wildcat .22-caliber bullets
Two boxes of .22-caliber long rifle Blazer, 100 rounds
80 rounds of CCI .22-caliber long rifle
31 .22-caliber rounds
Small plastic bag containing numerous .22 caliber bullets
Full box of Blazer .22 caliber long rifle, 50 rounds
Box of 20 Prvi Partizan .30-30 British rifle cartridges
Box of 20 Federal .303 British rifle cartridges
Box of PPU .303-caliber British cartridges with 9 rounds
Box of 20 rounds of Remington .223-caliber
Three Winchester .223-caliber rifle rounds
Six boxes of PMC .223-caliber, 20 rounds each
Three boxes of Blazer 40-caliber S&W, 150 rounds
Two boxes of Winchester 5.56mm, 40 rounds
Two boxes of Underwood 10mm auto, 100 rounds
Box of Underwood 10mm auto with 34 rounds
130 rounds of Lawman 9mm luger in 3 boxes
Box of miscellaneous 9mm rounds, 29 total
Two Win 9mm rounds
Small box of miscellaneous rounds
It's all to do with context. What if the police raided your house with all those knives in the kitchen drawers. You're obviously planning a massive murder spree with them. You're obviously a knife nut and need to be locked up for the public safety.

You seem to think that anyone with an interest in firearms has a mental health issue.

Sent from my Lenovo TB2-X30F using Tapatalk
 
The Lieutenant Governor in Texas sounds like he's off on a cause, but actually he's got a couple of good points.

Violent video games (and not reported here but violent media especially those who portray violent characters in film and TV), broken families, irresponsible gun owners, all contribute to the "culture" of guns and the seeming lack of consequences.

Not sure where removing religion from schools and the number of abortions fit in, but he seems to speak well

Texas lieutenant governor blames abortions and violent video games for school shootings, but not guns
He's an absolute f*cking moron. Does he think that violent computer games and abortion only exist in the US?

Isn't he one of the politicians pocketing millions from the NRA? He's hardly likely to stand up and say that maybe there could be a problem with firearms availability...
 
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I found this article interesting, looking into how behaviours become normalised. NB the article is originally from 2015.
On another terrible day, I hate to introduce even more pessimism, but when we discuss mass shootings, one of the first questions we ask is the simplest and also the hardest to answer. Why? Why does this keep happening? Those who advocate for gun control have an immediate answer — the prevalence of guns in the United States. Yet guns have been part of the fabric of American life for the entire history of our republic. Mass shootings — especially the most deadly mass shootings — are a far more recent phenomenon.

Writing in 2015, Malcolm Gladwell wrote what I think is still the best explanation for modern American mass shootings, and it’s easily the least comforting. At the risk of oversimplifying a complex argument, essentially he argues that each mass shooting lowers the threshold for the next. He argues, we are in the midst of a slow-motion “riot” of mass shootings, with the Columbine shooting in many ways the key triggering event. Relying on the work of Stanford sociologist Mark Granovetter, Gladwell notes that it’s a mistake to look at each incident independently:

Why Do Mass Shootings Happen? Here's The Best Explanation | National Review
 
You seem to think that anyone with an interest in firearms has a mental health issue.
......and the fruitcake with more guns and ammo than the Alamo isn't a contender for the funny farm? FFS nobody in the world needs or could use that much firepower, its obscene. You lot in the colonies need to re-evaluate your lifestyle choices, and stop comparing gun ownership with cock size, the bigger the gun, the bigger the.........
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
And yet in Northern Ireland where over 10,000 people are walking around with a personal protection weapon and 50,000 other people own firearms (the highest rate in the UK) we still haven't had an active shooter incident. On the Mainland after they banned semi-autos then banned handguns they had another active shooter incident using a shotgun and a .22 rifle.

I would also like to see one of these famous videos of heavily armed men walking into schools and no-one being able to do anything about it. You keep telling people these videos exist but yet no-one else has ever seen one.
It’s obvious. The reason we haven’t had an active shooter incident in the Province is because there’s so many guns about and no one wants to risk getting shot.
 
there’s so many guns about and no one wants to risk getting shot
The same criteria could be levelled on the spams, however, it seems the nutters carry on with their murderous rampages, knowing that at any time, joe public, plod, and the rednecks can slot them at any time, yet, they still insist on evil intent, common sense doesn't come into it.
 

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