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Mass grave in Baghdad

#1
Just seen on 5 news.
Mass grave found in Baghdad as workmen were installing a water pipe. Bodies are believed to be shite Muslims.

Will post link when I get one.
 
#3
Iraqi Mass Grave Discovered
Iraqi officials say they have found the remains of 31 people in a mass grave in the southern city of Karbala.

It is believed they may have died during the suppression of a Shi'ite uprising against Saddam Hussein after the 1991 Gulf War.

The bodies were discovered by workers laying pipes for the city's sewer system.

Police have sent the remains for DNA testing at a local hospital as they try to identify the bodies.

People who lost relatives during the rebellion are assisting with the identification process.

Initial tests indicate men, women and children were buried at the mass grave, which was uncovered by chance on Boxing Day.

Local man, Salman Saadoun, 50, said he remembered seeing bulldozers digging in the area after Saddam's elite Republican Guard entered the town to crush the rebellion.

A small public park was later built there.

Authorities say at least 259 mass graves containing some 300,000 people have been discovered in Iraq since the fall of the former dictator.
 
#5
I wonder if his Tonyness will ever be found in a mass grave??
 
#7
Iraqi officials say they have found the remains of 31 people in a mass grave in the southern city of Karbala.
...
Authorities say at least 259 mass graves containing some 300,000 people have been discovered in Iraq since the fall of the former dictator.
So average mass grave contains more than 1000 bodies but this particular one only 31.

I doubt in figure 300000 people (and in 259 mass graves). I don't see evidences.
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#8
Having recently seen my first mass grave site here, I'm astonished that they can get an estimate at all - but then these people have had plenty of experience, sadly. See "The Bone Woman : A Forensic Anthropologist's Search for Truth in the Mass Graves of Rwanda, Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo" for many, many examples.

There is one part of the desert near here with bones sticking up all over. We avoid it, of course, but in the old fort nearby (Old Brit fort, lately used as a prison/xecution place by the barsteward S Hussein) they drew white silhouettes on the wall for people to stand in front of. Makes the process so much quicker, don't you see? The walls are deeply pocked with bulletholes. The bones are nearby.

Frankly, that we stopped this sort of thing does make our presence here absolutely worthwhile. And of course, S Hussein's main backer was Russia, Sergey. He problably learnt everything about torture and execution from his Russian advisors, as, apart from maybe the Chinese, no-one else is as experienced in these things.

So, Sergey, don't EVER come on here and go on about US or MNF atrocities, until you apologise, in full and grovellingly, for what the Russians did, or condoned, or assisted with, in Iraq.

Rant over.
 
#9
Old Snowy, you might want to chill a little mate. I don't see how Sergey has ever tried to defend the actions of the regimes he was forced to live under. Sometimes his challenges of the US and Britain are uncomfortable and may not be in ratio to what has gone before in the USSR but that doesn't make his questions any less reasonable. Considering the disgraceful amounts of spin put out by both Bush and BLiar is it any wonder those outside of our Army raise tough questions?

Merry Christmas by the way.
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#10
True, I will indeed try to chill out. Don't take it too hard Sergey, but remember that a lot of these things (most of the recent grave sites, for example) represent atrocities that took place well after the failure of international Marxism, and there were still plenty of Russian - not Soviet - 'advisors' here then.

Easy enough, as it's bloody freezing here - but still nice and sunny :)
 
#11
OldSnowy said:
Having recently seen my first mass grave site here, I'm astonished that they can get an estimate at all - but then these people have had plenty of experience, sadly. See "The Bone Woman : A Forensic Anthropologist's Search for Truth in the Mass Graves of Rwanda, Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo" for many, many examples.

There is one part of the desert near here with bones sticking up all over. We avoid it, of course, but in the old fort nearby (Old Brit fort, lately used as a prison/xecution place by the barsteward S Hussein) they drew white silhouettes on the wall for people to stand in front of. Makes the process so much quicker, don't you see? The walls are deeply pocked with bulletholes. The bones are nearby.

Frankly, that we stopped this sort of thing does make our presence here absolutely worthwhile. And of course, S Hussein's main backer was Russia, Sergey. He problably learnt everything about torture and execution from his Russian advisors, as, apart from maybe the Chinese, no-one else is as experienced in these things.

So, Sergey, don't EVER come on here and go on about US or MNF atrocities, until you apologise, in full and grovellingly, for what the Russians did, or condoned, or assisted with, in Iraq.

Rant over.
OldSnowy!

I'm Russian but I'm a private person and don't bear any responsibility for any (especially imaginary) wrongdoings of any Russian (or Soviet) government.

You said that Russia was a main backer of Saddam's regime. Can you prove it?

Russia emerged in 1991 after collapse of Soviet Union. As I remember International sanctions against Saddam were imposed namely that time. Russia supported them and never violated. Don't you see a contradiction there?

You mentioned Kosovo in the context of mass graves. But have them been found there? Have you any information? Probably not. The answer would be unexpected for you: there are no mass graves in Kosovo. There was only one case: 41 killed men were discovered in Kosovo near one village. But they were not locals. It is still unknown who they were (maybe Serbs killed by Albanian rebels).

Returning to the theme of this thread I repeat my point: many allegations were made about mass graves in Iraq but too few evidences.

Of course, Saddam was a brutal dictator, of course he killed many (how many we don't know) but I speak about evidences.
 
#12
How's this, Sergey?

 
#13
stoatman said:
How's this, Sergey?

What is wrong with it? Soviet Union, not Russia sold these weapons to Iraq. Maybe you are aware that USA were called as Great Satan while Soviet Union as a small Satan by Iranian leadership in 80's and which side in Afganistan Iran backed then?

So there were no obstacles to sell weapons to Iraq in 80's, moreover USA backed Iraq in its war with Iran. As to numbers then simply Soviet weapons were cheaper than others (American oe French).

Soviet Union hadn't time machine in 80's and it was a very hard task to predict invasion in Kuwait.

As to so called Iraqi WMD, then as we know now Soviet Union/Russia is not involved there at all. But what about Western countries?
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#15
How about Russian Nuclear technology and Iran? How about Biopreparat and the missing bio weapon scientists? How about Oil for Food and the corruption of the UN process by France and Russia collectively?
 
#16
Herrenbloke said:
How about Russian Nuclear technology and Iran? How about Biopreparat and the missing bio weapon scientists? How about Oil for Food and the corruption of the UN process by France and Russia collectively?
Iran (unlike Israel) is a participant of NPT. There are no evidences that Iran violates the treaty. Cooperation with Iran does break any UN resolution or international law.

Biopreparat? Missing bio weapon scientists? What do you mean exactly?

Oil for Food. It is well known that destination of Iraqi oil was ... USA in most of the cases. Many businessmen and politicians were involved (including American). There are many allegations but too few evidences (as the case with mr.Galloway shows).

I would like to underline that there is no evidences of any involvement of Russian state structures in Oil-for-Food affair. As to activity of private persons (even private firms) then it means nothing from political point of view.
 
#17
Un-Friendly-Fire said:
What but how can this be? Saddam husseins iraq was a HAPPY place...with chocolate rivers and happy laughing children....i mean, the anti-war anti-army people told me so :roll:
'The anti-war anti-army people' are probably ill-informed. Saddam was a typical dictator and Iraq was rather poor country than rich. It is not something special. Look at Egypt, Marocco or Oman. Poor countries ruled by dictators.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#18
Sergey, you must have heard of Biopreparat, the state funded "Private" biotechnology company which was used to illegally develop bioweapons in direct contravention of the BW Convetnions? Enough of your citizens died in an accidental Anthrax release to make it newsworthy. Most of the scientists employed there went into the private sector (Or to the higgest bidder) like the good socialists they were, some went to Iraq, some to Iran, some we are still trying to track down and employ in the NHS. Iran is in blatant violation of the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty, the centrifuge enrichment process it is using is for weaponisation and not for power generation. I ask you another question, what does an oil rich state need nuclear power for? Electricity? Do you really think that we will allow a country that is aiding and abbetting the murderers of our troops to have a nuke? Iran will get a nuke one day, probably a 10 Megaton Airburst if they persist in their dangerous course of action.
 
#19
Herrenbloke said:
Sergey, you must have heard of Biopreparat, the state funded "Private" biotechnology company which was used to illegally develop bioweapons in direct contravention of the BW Convetnions? Enough of your citizens died in an accidental Anthrax release to make it newsworthy.
Herrenbloke! If Russia now violates BW Convention then our American friends of course should express their protests. But I don't see them in the news. As I know Biopreparat has developed an anti-anthrax vacine and it requires investigation in this area.

Most of the scientists employed there went into the private sector (Or to the higgest bidder) like the good socialists they were, some went to Iraq, some to Iran
What is your proposition? Create a new GULAG and send all scientists in military area there? Anyway I don't see any evidences that Russian specialists took part in creation of WMD abroad. As to Iraq then it is absolutely clear. I'm unaware about Russian bio-scientists detained in Iraq.

Iran is in blatant violation of the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty, the centrifuge enrichment process it is using is for weaponisation and not for power generation.
I reagard it as your private opinion. International inspectors haven't found any violation. Or maybe you have recent information?

I ask you another question, what does an oil rich state need nuclear power for? Electricity?
Cheap enegry would allow Iran to sell more oil and it will be very profitable. But of course it is not the main cause. As I suspect Iranian leadership wish to be at one step from creating of nuclear weapons. Now (only now) Iranian nuclear programme is strictly non-military as Japanese for example. Is Japan able to develop nuclear weapons in few months? Of course and Iranians wand to be in the same position. By the way, invasion in Iraq and threats toward Iran are sufficient casuses. Do you agree? Pakistan has nuclear weapons, so why Iran hasn't right to be at one step from its creation?

Do you really think that we will allow a country that is aiding and abbetting the murderers of our troops to have a nuke?
Probably you will allow. USSR, China and even Pakistan developed nuclear weapons without permission from Washington.

Iran will get a nuke one day
And it will not be a tragedy. Simply abilities of USA for military pressure will be eliminated, nothing special above it.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#20
Sergey, Nuclear energy is far from cheap, as far as the enrichment goes, it is an expensive and technically demanding process, uranium only has to be something like 5% pure to be used in fuel rods, the Iranian Process is designed to make it 95% pure which is what weaponisation requires (Give or take a few percentage points) As far as the Russian Biopreparat people are concerned, some of the information came when Libya bubbled to the West when it realised it was in our sights.
Iran has already made it clear that it wants to wipe Israel off the face of the map, do you think the Israelis will tolerate the nuclear gun pointing at their heads? We know the Iranians are giving technical help to terrorists, we know our soldiers have been killed as a result, we know that there is an Islamic extremist in power there, and after suffering Beslan Sergey, I thought you of all people would want to prevent nukes falling into the wrong hands.
For your information, Biopreparat devised an Anthrax which no vaccine at the time would touch. The vaccine development was just a cover story.
I'm not down on Russians Sergey, on the contrary I have worked with a Russian unit and was made most welcome and got very drunk but you seem to be a little blinkered.
 

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