Market Garden

[swordman]

All of a sudden, another year has vanished into oblivion, and the 65 anniversary of the Market Garden Operation is once more upon us.

That great moment of opportunity... to end the war by Christmas, The saving of thousands of young lives, getting to Berlin first....All that was a long chance. But the glittering prize of the open plains of Northern Germany .....Beckoned.

In the event... 80% of Market Garden succeeded. The final prize of "The Seven Bridges to Arnhem" Was to become the last bridge..."The Bridge too far"

You do not win all the battles in war time. But this one was truly worth the sacrifices that were made.

The lasting disgrace about Market Garden, was the film of that battle. It was largely untrue. and belittled the men that took part, and sacrificed their lives in that great endeavour..

Remember.
Swordman

 

[Seadog]

swordman wrote

The lasting disgrace about Market Garden, was the film of that battle. It was largely untrue. and belittled the men that took part, and sacrificed their lives in that great endeavour..

If you mean ABTF, it isn't meant to be a documentary. It does have a few 'come off it moments' a couple of ficticious characters and the wrong tanks but how does it belittle anyone?

 

[Spanny]

The lasting disgrace about Market Garden, was the film of that battle. It was largely untrue. and belittled the men that took part, and sacrificed their lives in that great endeavour..

Remember.
Swordman

Duh . The film was based on an accurate indepth book . As has been said it's not a documentary therefore there's going to bits that are changeed but is an honest account of what happened

 

[para_medic]

And here is what really happened: Red Devils of Arnhem

 

[Krek_Brizzle]

Surely '80% successful' was just spin? Market Garden was win/lose. Win and you get a bridge over the Rhine, lose and you get a long narrow salient of no strategic value that must be defended.

 

[Hols4Heroes]

It might pay to read back through some of Swordsmans posts prior to scoffing at his opinion Spanny.

Do it quickly then come back and apologise for being a silly boy.

 

[tiger stacker]

Theirs is the Glory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuR1MWmk2g

Since the film was made with actual participants who were there.

 

[scarletto]

It might pay to read back through some of Swordsmans posts prior to scoffing at his opinion Spanny.

Do it quickly then come back and apologise for being a silly boy.

Totally agree.

Also the film was based on Cornelius Ryans book, which pre-internet certainly was the bees knees book about Operation Market Garden. However the internet and the freedom and ease of information, means Ryans book can no longer be held as accurate and in depth. Lots more books with info now show things in a different light.

 

[Born_Again_Stab]

The film ABTF relied heavily on Cornelius Ryan's book of the same name. If you want an historicaly accurate account of Market gsrden then do not read ABTF. Martin Middlebrooks Arnhem 1944 and Kershaw's It Never Snows in September will give a greater depiction of the actual events from both sides.

There are many myths that surround Market Garden. None more so contentious as the knowledge that II SS Panzer Korps was refitting near Arnhem. here is an extract from the 1st Parachute Brigade Orders:

"4. ENEMY FORCES

There is little information about forces actually in the area at present, but some estimate can be made from previous figures and the probabilities of the situation. Before last June, the area ARNHEM- ZWOLLE - AMERSFOORT was an important training area, particularly for armoured and motorised troops, including SS and Hermann Goering reinforcements units. The HQ for Pz training was at ZWOLLE, which was also the location of 20 Mobile Bde controlling seven mob bns. The whole area might contain 15,000 troops, of which perhaps 8,000 would be concentrated in EDE 5785 and ARNHEM

...Meanwhile a reported concentration of 10,000 troops SW of ZWOLLE on Sep 1 may present a battle scarred Pz Div or two reforming ..."

Dispells the myth that remenants of two SS Panzer divisons were not expected to be in the area.

 

[Bollock-chops]

Is everyone aware of http://www.marketgarden.com/2010/UK/frames.html

click on the web review for an insight, it tells an awful lot about the whole campaign.

 

[swordman]

Being I took part in operation Market garden, I can talk with real experience. For a start it was not a thin salient that could be cut off or have to be defended. It was a two pronged attack Northwards. I took part in the Eastern drive North, Indeed we crossed Escaut Canal at one in the morning in a complete nightmare attack. Lost me mates. WE drove North Via Peere, Petite Brogel, Weert,marheez, linden Mook Nijmegen,Overoon and Venraij.
But we were cut off and had to live on captured German rations.
A little while after my war ended on the road between Overloo and Vewnraij; after collecting the next days battle orders, In the film there was talk about the Guardsmen stopping for tea.having seen actions a few occasions with the Guards Armoured div, that was just about the most stupid thing to put in a film. If you knew the Guards as I do? then that stopping for tea was just plain idiotic and I dont give a damn where it came form
Swordsman

 

[Seadog]

There are many myths that surround Market Garden. None more so contentious as the knowledge that II SS Panzer Korps was refitting near Arnhem.

Yup, Montgomery's memoirs say to the effect, we knew II SS Panzer Corps were there, we just didn't think they were much of a threat.

Oops.

Got INSIS. Paid top Guilder (Euro actually) at Hartenstein then kept on bumping into it cheaper or free (JSCSC library for instance). A good read.

 

[jack-daniels]

This book covers a few of the errors that were made and is a good read:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1854092057/?tag=armrumser-21

 

[Born_Again_Stab]

Thank you Swordman for posting your firsthand experience of MG. I for one would like to hear more.

On the subject of the Guards drinking tea, yet another Cornelius Ryan myth. The actual oficer in charge was Lord Carrington, who was a Guards Captain at the time, naturally his version of events differs entirely from the version in ABTF. In actual fact it was the Guards who took the road bridge at Nijmegen, not the US Paras. The US 504 launched their extremely brave river assault across the Waal near the railway bridge further upstream.

 

[swordman]

No matter who was facing them. the glittering prize of the open plains of Northern Germany.And the war over by Christmas was worth the most uneven odds.

Why do I get upset by the film.... This talk about stopping for tea, while their mates fought against tremendous odds, does a great injustice to the men that gave their lives at that time. many of them my friends.

I honour their memory. It also cost me dear, for the rest of my life would be changed for ever.
Swordman

 

[jack-daniels]

I've got a DVD at home of an old friend of mine who recently died (he was ex 10 Para at Arnhem) talking about his experiences before, during and after Arnhem when he was captured. I'll try and download it to put a link on here. Brings a tear to my eye watching the old fella talking about it .

There's a picture of him here:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/download/id=32789.html

 

[Seadog]

Reference the Guards stopping to brew up, Col J O E Vandeluer was an advisor on the film. If he was anything like Lt Col (by then Maj Gen) Frost who also advised, you'd think he'd have told Dickie that the scene was bollox. If it is,you're right swordman, it belittles the men.

 

[swordman]

Nijmegen bridge, The Guards took it, and I went over soon after, seeking a Harbour area for my Company to move onto the Island.
At the time I was stopped and told "dont try it mate unless you have to"
The Bridge had infantry up in the superstructure, waiting to fire on sea mines that were being floated down the river in an attempt to blow the bridge.
I found a suitable area but did not go further as shell fire kept straddling the road, In fact we went off in the opposite direction to the misery battles of Overloon
Swordman

 

[Born_Again_Stab]

The greatest error of MG was not ignoring the threat of a refitting SS Panzer Korps, or dropping 1st Airborne 8 miles from the objective, or providing sufficient airlift to land all three divisions on one day. The greatest error was not capturing Nijmegen bridge on day one. Gen Gavin should have insisted that the US 508 PIR occupy and hold the road bridge and not being so concerned with the Groesbeek heights. It would not have been necessary for XXX Corps to have spent two days clearing Nijmegen and ejecting SS Kamfgruppe Euling from the bridge.

Gen Browning must also take some of the blame as he also insisted that the greater priority for the 82nd Division was the Groesbeek Heights.

 

[slopey_shoulders]

i organised a tour whilst i was serving in germany to arnhem. i managed to get adrian groenweg as a guide for the day, he took us along the exact route the jonny frost took, his in depth knowledge of the area and battle was astonishing, he brought the whole day and events that took place in arnhem and the surrounding area to life. i asked him about ABTF, and his opinion was it was shite!..now gents this bloke is over 80 years of age, and has advised many authors (never snows in sept) of the history of market garden!! check the inside cover of that book..as his name appears there...

since that tour, (2005) i visited arnhem on my own and quietly walked about the place, deep in my thoughts of what those men went through.it is truely an awe inspiring place to visit...