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Mao Mao Claims of torture Compensation?

#1
Are these two old scrotes in Kenya swinging the light? Were any British troops captured and tortured by the Mau Mau, Murdered, etc etc. there must be some lads surviving that know if anything happened. A counter claim by our lads and/or families would deter further claims out of the taxpayers purse?
 
#3
Having just read the Wikipedia account of the Mau Mau Uprising I am somewhat shocked at what happened! However as its unlikely that those who made the decisions to torture etc are still living. I cant see how this government can be held accountable.
I see the Kenyan Government have sneakiley got out of their responcibilities by supporting former Mau Mau members and pronouncing them as hero's.
If they are going to make claims against our Government then relitives of the thirty odd British people murdered by the Mau Mau should make substantial claims against the Kenyan Government which now support Mau Mau claimants.
 
#4
Hopefully we will bin Kenya and train somewhere else.

Well done Kenya you did win your day in court, but look what you could have won. (the continued financial a political support of the UK).

Not that I'm a spiteful ****, but you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds.
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
#5
I also think it's time we sued the Indian Government for the Black Hole of Calcutta incident, the Italian Government for all those slaves the Romans took, the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish Governments for all that rape and pillage the Vikings did, Arab Governments for all the slaves they took from the south west coast of England. And the French for refusing to accept that our monarch is also theirs.

Here's the way to remove the National Deficit!
 
#6
Having just read the Wikipedia account of the Mau Mau Uprising I am somewhat shocked at what happened! However as its unlikely that those who made the decisions to torture etc are still living. I cant see how this government can be held accountable.
I see the Kenyan Government have sneakiley got out of their responcibilities by supporting former Mau Mau members and pronouncing them as hero's.
If they are going to make claims against our Government then relitives of the thirty odd British people murdered by the Mau Mau should make substantial claims against the Kenyan Government which now support Mau Mau claimants.

Why shocked?

You are applying todays mega PC moral compass,to events that happened 50 odd years ago.

The majority of British troops were conscripts,controlled by the British Colonial Office,people both native Kenyans,and Whites,were being murdered,and mutilated,in an horrendous fashion,and there was what would be called by some today "an over reaction" to these terrible deeds,carried out by the Mau Mau but,back then it would be classed as Summary justice,and justified,by those people on the spot.

Even in the early 60's,history was being rewritten,by so called African experts,who had been nowhere near Kenya,during the troubles,and many ex members of the Colonial Administration,were shit on,and cast adrift,by the FCO,at that time.

Hindsight is a wonderful gift,but always tends to be endowed upon people,who do a lot of research,long after the event,and wouldn't know the truth,if it bit them on the arse.


As for the Kenyan governments backing of these,murdering fuckwits,why any surprise,Jomo Kenyatta the first president of Kenya,was a massive supporter of the Mau Mau movement,and succesive governments,have followed his lead,to get into power!
 
#7
Well RoofRat you've just beaten me in writing a similar post and since you have covered the important points I'll just mention that the legal system might come to the rescue with its procrastination.
 
#8
I might also add,whenever anyone reads contemporary accounts,of our Colonial past,take a couple of things in to consideration.

The Mea Culpa fad,about anything that we have done,in the last 1,000 + years (sorry I refuse to apologise to the French),and the application of,todays moral values (yeah,I know,don't laugh),on something that happened upto 1,000 + years ago,and hindsight (not available at the time ;-) )

Not forgetting,none of these books are written,and published for purely altruistic reasons,but normally,for furthering the authors standing,in the world,and money.


Some of these fuckwits could well have been tortured,but not neccessarily,by the Brits/Colonial forces,as the Mau Mau,killed,and maimed,more of the locals,than the Opposition!
 
#9
Just got to wonder how many of the "colonial officials" who sanctioned the actions are Kenyan nationals and, presumably, became members of the Kenyan government.

I don't suppose there'd be much hope of compensation from that source, though.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#10
Calm down, calm down. They've only won the right to take the UK to court. They haven't got any money yet and at their age, they may not even be around by the time this get's heard.
 
#11
Are these two old scrotes in Kenya swinging the light? Were any British troops captured and tortured by the Mau Mau, Murdered, etc etc. there must be some lads surviving that know if anything happened. A counter claim by our lads and/or families would deter further claims out of the taxpayers purse?
Colonial troops, not just "British".

Idi Amin was one of them, he was known for carving up prisoners with a panga, troops from the African Rifles would quite merrily take on the job of bumping off members of rival tribal groups.

We did bad things in Kenya, accept that and move on.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#12
Why shocked?

You are applying todays mega PC moral compass,to events that happened 50 odd years ago.

The majority of British troops were conscripts,controlled by the British Colonial Office,people both native Kenyans,and Whites,were being murdered,and mutilated,in an horrendous fashion,and there was what would be called by some today "an over reaction" to these terrible deeds,carried out by the Mau Mau but,back then it would be classed as Summary justice,and justified,by those people on the spot.

Even in the early 60's,history was being rewritten,by so called African experts,who had been nowhere near Kenya,during the troubles,and many ex members of the Colonial Administration,were shit on,and cast adrift,by the FCO,at that time.

Hindsight is a wonderful gift,but always tends to be endowed upon people,who do a lot of research,long after the event,and wouldn't know the truth,if it bit them on the arse.


As for the Kenyan governments backing of these,murdering fuckwits,why any surprise,Jomo Kenyatta the first president of Kenya,was a massive supporter of the Mau Mau movement,and succesive governments,have followed his lead,to get into power!
Me quoting me , again,:

Vey true, the nationalist Jomo Kenyatta, who was an inspitaration for Mau Mau, had it taken from him by what he termed umaramari, criminality.

That Mau Mau grew out of the very real political and socio-economic pressures of the inter and post war years is indisputable, if anything it was a response to the failures of the two primary African parties that were in existence prior to 1947 (the KAU - Kenya African Union; and the KCA - Kikuyu Central Association, which was later banned), to reverse the alienation of the black population from ownership of the land, and their treatment as second class citizens by the settler population. The failure of the resistence by these parties led to a rift within Kikuyu society this rift, between moderates and militants which would ultimately lead to Mau Mau and rebellion.

Mau Mau was not just a war for land, but also a civil war of a society within a state: Mau Maus were "....the product of deeep political conflict within Kikuyu society." (1). It was war of identity and the right to forge political change between those in authority and the underclass. The schism is highlighted by Kenyatta's disavowal of the Movement (Kenyatta was the president of the KAU). Despite his public disavowal, Kenyatta was a convenient scapegoat for the colonial authorities and he was imprisoned for the course of the emergency.

The rift within Kikuyu society was one of class, on one side the moderates desiring following the path of constitutional reform, comprised of the bourgeois elements of the KAU, businessmen and traders that had benefitted from past progressive reforms, this faction feared Mau Mau as a threat to their prosperity and achievements. Mau Maus supporters came from squatters and the urbanised migratory workforce, often from the slums of Nairobi, whose economic foundations were tenuous and insecure due to combination of low wages and periodic goverment endorsed expulsions. Mau Mau leader, Eluid Mutoyni recognised this link between poverty and rebellion observing that "poverty has no patriotism" (2). The colonial authorities on the otherhand failed to recognise this link, for them Mau Mau was the realisation of their dualist view of Africa, both primitive and modern. For them Mau mau was a savage socerous rebellion led by an educated elite. They were blind to the division.

Yet there were also class divisions within Mau Mau itself, there was considerable "bitter enmity between literate and illiterate factions." (3)The literate was represented by the Kenya Parliament, the illiterate by the Kenya Riigi, and they disagreed on many points, including marriage and hierachy; the Riigi would accuse Parliament of being autocratic and westernised, whist Parliament accused Riigi of being primitive and parochial. The institutionalised spilt in Mau Mau reflected the split in wider Kikuya society.

Mau Mau was a Kikuyu response to a society and culture under attack, Kikuyu political activities throughout the 1930s were harrassed and repressed by the Colonial Authorities, for example the KCA being outlawed. In cultural terms the attack on Kikuyu traditional beliefs is best represented by the Female Circumcision Crises between 1928 and 1931, an attack on cliterodectomy led by the Presbyterian Church. If we ignore the right or wrong of female circumcision, it can be percieved as a direct attack on Kikuyu culture and identity: the attack was denial of Kikuyu identity.

I could go on but that will do for starters more to follow later.



(1) p.417 Lonsdale, J. ; "Mau Mau of the Mind", Journal of African History 31 (1990)
(2)Ibid, p. 419
(3) p. 11 White, L. "Separating the Men from the Boys", International Journal of African Historical Studies 23, 1, (1990)
One of the reasons that Mau Mau was predominately Kikuyu was that they did not trust other tribal peoples to be as loyal to the movement as their fellow Kikuyu, nevertheless other tribes were involved in the rebellion including the the Kikuyu's closest historical partners the Emba and Meera peoples and, to a lesser extent, the Kambaa and Maasai. It should also be noted there were other political groups during and predating this period for the Luo, Luyia and Swahili. It is possible the Obama Snr was amember of one of these.

The Colonial Authorities took a dual response to combatting the insurgency, including the drafting in of British troops and the arming of loyalist African groups. The nature of the counterinsurgency was to prove brutal in the extreme as Cooper observed: "The savagery of British counter terrorism in Kenya was built aginst the belief that the terrorist was a savage." (1) The nature of the counter insurgency also highlights the idea of a civil war, beyond the fact that British troops were brought in to aid the suppression of Mau Mau, the Colonial Government also created a loyalist resistence by arming tribal chiefs and policemen. These loyalists then established the KG (Kikuyu Guard), the KG were to prove the most adept of the loyalist militias in surpressing Mau Mau, however they mirrored Mau Mau in the way that they recruited through coercion, public confession and oaths of cleansing. The authorities and settlers came to believe that all Kikuyu were potential Mau Mau and as a result treated them as such, stettlers often percieved this as an oppurtunity to enact revenge against those who had turned aginst them, an approach that was to drive many into the arms of Mau Mau, after all "...if one were treated as Mau Mau... it seemed prudent to become one" (2)

One should note that Obama Snr was imprisoned in 1949, prior to the emergency though.

However violence in the prison system was not rare. A number of detention camps were establish during the emergency with a policy of "moral and political re-education to counteract the Mau Mau oath"(3)
In the detention camps policies were carried out to re-create gender roles along the European model and promote literacy, using literate rebels as teachers, these policies were designed to reintegrate them into colonial society. They were also designed to breakdown racial and tribal barriers and establish class divisions in their place. However these policies were ambiguous at best and had little support. The realisation that these policies were inadequate at best and would not serve to reintegrate Mau Mau came with the beating to death of 11 detainees at a camp at Hola. These detainees were assserting their status as political prisoners by refusing to work with the program. To have done so would have been a admission that their actions in the rebellion were wrong and that they were criminals. By objecting they were asserting their belief that they were "pursuing logical and irrevocable political aims"(4)

(1) Cooper F. p.319
(2) Lonsdale J. p.396
(3) White, L. p.20
(4) Lonsdale, J. p 416

For further reading - see my sig block
 
#13
Colonial troops, not just "British".

Idi Amin was one of them, he was known for carving up prisoners with a panga, troops from the African Rifles would quite merrily take on the job of bumping off members of rival tribal groups.

We did bad things in Kenya, accept that and move on.


I think you'll find,we did,a long time ago,it's these little chancers that haven't.

The Kenyan government,eulogises these 'freedom fighters',for their own ends,but doesn't think enough of them to provide any sort of welfare for their old age,hence the need to pursue,the British government,for money,to 'provide for their old age'!


As for Idi Amin "carving up prisoners with a panga",I'm afraid hearsay,isn't evidence.


The fact that these people waited so long before bringing this case,wouldn't of course have anything to do with the revelation,that 'lost documents,and files' from this period had been 'discovered' somewhere in the bowels of the FCO,could it,and another British barrister,is set to make millions? ;-)
 
#14
I think you'll find,we did,a long time ago,it's these little chancers that haven't.

The Kenyan government,eulogises these 'freedom fighters',for their own ends,but doesn't think enough of them to provide any sort of welfare for their old age,hence the need to pursue,the British government,for money,to 'provide for their old age'!


As for Idi Amin "carving up prisoners with a panga",I'm afraid hearsay,isn't evidence.


The fact that these people waited so long before bringing this case,wouldn't of course have anything to do with the revelation,that 'lost documents,and files' from this period had been 'discovered' somewhere in the bowels of the FCO,could it,and another British barrister,is set to make millions? ;-)
You are entirely right, no one's going to deny that the compo gravy train will be rolling. We have already seen all the "mass rape" claims and the ones for Kenyans who claim they were injured by pyro lying around on the training areas when the number one cause of the injuries is going to in fact be cooking fires, in blighty before we had gas and electric women were most likely to die not in child birth but as a result of cooking accidents.

Amin was still a nasty **** though.
 
#15
I also think it's time we sued the Indian Government for the Black Hole of Calcutta incident, the Italian Government for all those slaves the Romans took, the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish Governments for all that rape and pillage the Vikings did, Arab Governments for all the slaves they took from the south west coast of England. And the French for refusing to accept that our monarch is also theirs.

Here's the way to remove the National Deficit!
Wait until you get the bill from the Chinese for the destruction of the Summer Palace.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#18
Amin was still a nasty **** though.
You mean this Idi?...

His full self-bestowed title ultimately became: "His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular".


Or the 2 RGJ Idi?
 
#20
Why shocked?

You are applying todays mega PC moral compass,to events that happened 50 odd years ago.

The majority of British troops were conscripts,controlled by the British Colonial Office,people both native Kenyans,and Whites,were being murdered,and mutilated,in an horrendous fashion,and there was what would be called by some today "an over reaction" to these terrible deeds,carried out by the Mau Mau but,back then it would be classed as Summary justice,and justified,by those people on the spot.

Even in the early 60's,history was being rewritten,by so called African experts,who had been nowhere near Kenya,during the troubles,and many ex members of the Colonial Administration,were shit on,and cast adrift,by the FCO,at that time.

Hindsight is a wonderful gift,but always tends to be endowed upon people,who do a lot of research,long after the event,and wouldn't know the truth,if it bit them on the arse.


As for the Kenyan governments backing of these,murdering fuckwits,why any surprise,Jomo Kenyatta the first president of Kenya,was a massive supporter of the Mau Mau movement,and succesive governments,have followed his lead,to get into power!
Thanks for that, as it all happened before I was born I am relying on you old sweats to supply and enlighten us!
 

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