Discussion in 'Education and Resettlement Courses' started by Masters, Dec 7, 2011.
The heart of the site is the forum area, including:
Anybody who has already left got any advice on what management courses are worth doing?
I did an ILM level 3 accredited course. I found parts of it beneficial but not sure how good, if at all, it looks on the CV. If coming from the military into a civvie management role you need to understand the softer side of management, ie less authoritative and more delegative styles of management and leadership, also understanding grievances and disputes. You cant just order people to do things or send them to jail in civvie street. I would definately encourage you to look into civilian management courses on this basis but dont get too built up by it, your background (assuming you are ex NCO / Officer) will have provided you with management and leadership skills that i would hope a potential employer would recognise.
I thought I'd use this thread instead of starting my own.
In my civvy job Im looking at redundancy in about ten months.
Im interested in improving my CV and would be interested in any experience people have of ILM.
ie Is it worth joining and what levels of CLM training etc are transferrable to ILM
The ultimate (allegedly) managemnt qualification to stick under a potential employers nose is the MBA - Masters in Business Administration.
Now you are all thinking "Whats this twat on about? I don't even have a degree so how the feck can I do an MBA"?
The truth is you don't need a degree to get an MBA. Uni's don't shut about it because they want you to spend your money getting a degree and then to spend the rest of your money on an MBA.
If you have a smidgen of management or supervisory experience that you can prove then you can get a university based management qualification. Proof of experience is a doddle if you are or were military at a rank over private, honest......you may have to tell a white porkie or two but everyone does.
Ok so whats the route to MBA? Easy, it takes three years part time or around 12 - 15 monhs full-time. It is normally a staged route:
Stage 1. Certificate in Management Studies (CMS). This is a recognised post gradate qualification. Yes, yes, you can go on it with no degree so long as you have some relevant experience and yountell them tha you want to formalise your experience into a qualification
Stage 2. Diploma in Management Studies. This generally follows on from the CMS, however with the right level of experience you can direct enter to the DMS level, ie. SNCO, WO, Officer.......saying that I knew a former L/Cpl with a nice line of patter who made it and went on to get a MBA.
Stage 3. MBA. This follows on from the DMS and more or less, in my experience a my uni, consists of a strategic management module and a major work based project [dissertation 12000 - 18000 words].
At the end of the day the scheme driven management certificates are only worth anything if the employer knows what it is. An ILM or noddy club certificate are only known about by those who have them and where they are actively advertised whereas a DMS and MBA are known within most corporates and having one will open more doors. I don't know what the education course is that the army run nowadays but I do know what I learnt on my EPC was a benefit when I did management at uni.
Also, don't be worried about not having a degree to get onto a postgrad course. Management schools need bums on seats to pay the electric bills, if you have had a supervisory or management post then make our case and you will get in, honest. I have seen squaddies become medical doctors, research scientists, management consltants and lawyers........it is do'able.
I joined a couple of the Institutes of Things and Doofers to get letter after my name when I was leaving the army. To be honest they were organised robbery aimed at parting the unknowing from their money. A DMS will take around 9 to 10 months to obtain (September to June Academic year) which is as long as some of the self study programmes take.
With a DMS/MBA you can join: http://www.managers.org.uk/
If you do a marketing biased qualification you can join this:
If you have training or HR experience you can get the ball rolling for these:
I knew a former basic training platoon commander who joined these on the strength of his mong beasting experience.
You should look carefully at what you are trying to achieve and where you want to go.
Organisations like ILM and CMI basically assess what you already know and accredit against a national framework. They provide little (often no) new knowledge or learning. Nor are they sought after by employers; I doubt they even make the difference between your CV getting through a sift or not. Where they are good for service leavers is that they baseline your experience and training against national standards, which gives you confidence that you have received good management training and should help you identify the gaps.
The next thing you need to look at is the gaps. Few service people have any financial experience, which can be a real issue for employers. You could look at something like Financial Accounting for non-Accounants, which is available free as a university short course. If you want to go into a specific discipline such as Project management, PRINCE2 or PMP are often required by employers. If you are an officer, then the Advanced Management Achievers Course at Manchester is good, but there are others around that do similar and aren't "rankest". These kind of courses will fill gaps in your theoretical knowledge and give you the confidence to talk common business sense at an interview. Again, none of these will really swing a potential employer on your CV.
Effendi is right; at the top, there is the MBA, but an MBA is not a management course; it is about how business works. Nor is it easy; I did mine after leaving, whilst holding down a serious job. It was darned hard work. I am not sure that the route that Effendi describes into an MBA actually works; you may need business or management experience to get in, especially to an "Executive" program. I did mine with an American uni and they needed a 4 year bachelors degree. This is one area that CMI accreditation and the like might help. Oh, and MBAs aren't cheap; anything form 10-50k depending on where you choose.
Don't forget that if you are a Junior NCO or above, you will have received more management training than most people in management roles will ever receive in their careers. Start looking at job ads for jobs you think you want / could do and look at where you have gaps and try to fill them.
Bob, they need to speak to individual universities about the CMS ---> DMS ---> MBA route. Most of the decent UK business schools will offer the route as a staged approach to getting an MBA over 3 years part -time.
I taught at Leeds for a while whilst doing a PhD and my Mrs happened to get employer sponsorship to do an MBA. She wandered in for the course brief, decided that the CMS was below her experience level and told them that she wanted direct entry to DMS level or she was not playing. They agreed with a bit of huffing and puffing. As it turned out there were a few others on her course that had done exactly the same.
American universities are a totally different animal to British Uni's - we are just going thru the process of starting to look for number one daughter child.
At the end of the day we can tell them whatever, but they need to go and ask at their local college/uni.
Effendi, I stand corrected, although when looking around for my MBA, most of the UK uni's I looked at wanted to see management experience so that students could contribute to classes. I was looking at the higher end of the market though (London Business School, LSE etc), where competition for places is fierce. Went American because I was working for an American company who provided it for free.
You are spot on about anything being doable. I too know people who have left from LCpl and upwards who have made very successful careers in the real world, often far more successful than their service career. There are lots of opportunities out there but they don't come to you. You have to go out and find them and make it happen.
One last thing, you mentioned CMI with a link to Chartered Management Institute | Chartered Management Institute. They have already accredited many Army courses and ranks. You can join them and get chartered without a DMS or MBA, shortcutting much of their qualification process. Their magazine, management Today, is a very good read for broadening ones horizons.
I wonder what you would like to manage ?
for example I went into accounts receivable so joined the Institute of credit management , sub courses time management ,interpersonal relationships , leadership in management etc etc . In the end I was A Fellow and had up to 24 staff under me .
But if I wanted to manage a building site , or bank, or a call centre ( as i later did) the call centre bit) I would have to take industry specific qualifications . but getting the quals put ££'s on my wages for sure .
On this subject I have a personal view that in order to get a decent pay rise I had to keep moving companies and not stick with the same one for more than 2/3 years.I was one of the top paid in my industry. Whereas some folks rightly took lower wages for more stability .
So have a shufti at the professional bodies websites and see if that helps . good luck
You are correct Sir.
Mrs Effendi married Pte Effendi many years ago. At the time she was a bank clerk working on the counter in a local town centre branch. A 6 years period in BAOR moved her into training, development and personnel. Upon returning to the UK she moved back to banking and finance with the express intention of moving up the slippery pole of success. A tactical move every two to three years was done inorder to get a promotion and pay rise with every move. In the UK she ended up as a Vice President of a major division of a bank and a director of three of the banks major business units. In the USA she is a Vice President, Head of HR for a country and head of HR for an international business division.
From a council estate, married a squaddie, no A levels, degree as a mature student, DMS and a fellow of the institute of personnel and development and earns well into 6 figures. She used to go out of her way to hire ex forces in the UK as th are always better employees, but most blokes have the attitude of "well my pension kicks in a 55" so they never push the career path as a civvy. Bollocks, a decent, admin savvy, squaddie who carefully posts hmself to a different company every 2 to 3 years should be able to be approaching a 6 figure salary within 5 to 6 years. Now would'nt that be better tha waiting for your feckin army pension to kick in. I have met, known and worked with some right nobbers in the City who are getting half a million a year, including their bonus. There is even an ex- bandsman who fell into investment banking and earns an absolute wedge.
I went through the academic mill after leaing the army, but with what I found out on the way I now know I cold have short circuited the system and even done the quals whilst in the military. There is nothing to stop any single one of you based in the UK from picking up a valuable paper qualification before you leave by starting it a couple of years before your leave date.
Then the thing to do is to start looking early on at what you want t spend the next 20 years doing. Once you have decided that, d what stuents do. Contact companies, ask to visit, spend a couple of days with them. It gives you contacts and lines you up for future jobs, honest. FFS don't approach it with the "I'm only looking for something to tide me over" attitude.
There's a number of threads on here on the subject but this seems to be within living memory so I thought I'd post here.
I'm looking to do a part time masters degree but I'm unsure whether or not to go for an MBA or an MSc specific to my industry. I think I'd rather head down the management rather than the technical career path (I work for a large multinational in the oil and gas business) which would nudge me towards the MBA however I've heard a few people mention that you can choose modules in an MSc which can provide a management slant to the degree and which industry will be happy with for considering you for management positions (before anyone kicks off I am aware that you don't get a job just on the basis of a second degree).
It's also worth mentioning that I'll be doing a couple of masters modules in subsea engineering over the next few months through my work to help myself and a few others gain chartered status so these could probably just roll into an MSc.
Cost isn't a worry as my company would be paying, if they won't then it won't happen as I'm rooked. I'd probably be looking at strathclyde university.
Posted from the ARRSE Mobile app (iOS or Android)
Personal view, but it may be of value given that I am a Chartered Engineer and MBA. I think you need to work through where you want to be in 10 years or so before deciding. I would say you have two paths, obviously not exclusive:
1. If you are a vocational engineer and want to manage engineering, then you need sharp Project Management skills. You should find PM models available in either the MSc or MBA, or you could look outside at a vocational body like PMI or even do a Masters in project Management. Point being, managing engineering is project management.
2. If, like I did, you want to get away from managing engineering and head up the greasy corporate pole, then do an MBA. I did Project Management modules on mine, but, to be honest, they weren't up to what PMI offers and I could have done something more valuable. An MBA is a truly mind opening degree if you haven't been exposed to corporate business, but it has limited applicability if you then go and manage engineering projects, especially if you then need to learn advanced program / project management skills!
The other thing to do is to look very carefully at where the sweet spot is between your potential MSc and MBA. A colleague of mine who did the same MBA had credits from his MEng for nearly half his MBA - it was American though. Personally, I struggled to see the point as he left a lot of the potential of the MBA on the table, but then he is still managing engineering so I don't suppose he is too bothered.
Thanks for the reply, I'm probably looking at option 2 as I would like to take advantage of moving across the various different businesses that the company has over the course of my career (I'm not ruling out moving but its a big company with good opportunities) and whilst I could do this as an engineering or project manager I think the number of options open to be would be reduced.
I've already made my mind up to be honest, I'm just waiting for the rest of me to be convinced that the 2-3 years of graft will be worth it.
right, one other question. has anyone done a part time course (2-3 years typically) as opposed to the full time or distance/flexible learning? if so whats the work load actually like? is it doable with a young family (and the associated sleep deprivation)?
Again, a personal view. A good MBA is a truly mind opening experience and one of the things that makes it mind opening is your fellow students. If you can do a part time one, you will get far more benefit out of it. It took me three goes to finally crack the MBA; I tried OU in the early 90s but deployments got in the way. I tried a distance learning one with a US university, which I found very basic and I finally cracked it with a part time course.
The workload is neutral; if you want to get an MBA in 3 years whilst working it will be hard whichever path you choose. For me, part time wins hands down, especially if work is providing release time.
i've had a look at the course handbook as well as speaking to the co-ordinator and i'm now less concerned about the workload. prior to this all the info i had was people sucking air through their teeth and saying how tough it was. whilst the family life is a bit hectic at the moment my job is pretty manageable and if i wait a few years this balance will just be weighted in the other direction.
the part time course seems pretty good in that if you want to speed up phases or are working away for a period of time you can choose to do modules through flexible (distance) learning instead. this is by no means why i'd rather do a part time course, rather i recognise that i work best when cornered like a rat on a sinking ship.
i'm just waiting to find out if i'll be able to get funding for next year or whether i'll need to wait until 2016/2017.
Separate names with a comma.