Man 'not armed when shot by police'

Discussion in 'Police, PMCs, Security' started by mrrandom, Nov 19, 2011.

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  1. An investigation into the death of Mark Duggan who was shot dead by police, triggering a series of riots across the country, has found no forensic evidence that he was carrying a gun, it was reported.

    The claim was made by the Guardian newspaper, but Scotland Yard said it would be "premature" to draw any conclusions about the findings of the investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) into the incident in Tottenham. north London, on August 4.

    The Guardian said a gun collected by Mr Duggan earlier in the day was recovered 10 to 14ft away, on the other side of a low fence from his body, and that he was killed outside the vehicle he was travelling in, after a police marksman fired twice.

    On the day Mr Duggan was shot, there is overwhelming evidence he had obtained a firearm, but the investigation is considering whether he had the weapon in his possession when he was shot, the Guardian said.

    A statement from Scotland Yard said on Saturday: "The MPS (Metropolitan Police Service) is aware of an article published online by the Guardian on 18 November in which a number of assertions are made in relation to the IPCC investigation into the death of Mark Duggan.

    "We believe the Guardian's headline is inaccurate and misleading based on what is known at this time and will be making this point in the strongest possible terms to the newspaper.

    "The article, and especially its headline, states as fact issues that are subject to an ongoing investigation by the IPCC, and we would reiterate that it is premature to draw any conclusions about its findings."

    IPCC commissioner Rachel Cerfontyne said: "The ongoing IPCC investigation into the death of Mark Duggan is examining a range of issues.

    "We are providing updates and, where possible, answers to the family of Mr Duggan.

    "This is a complex investigation that involves gathering information including witness statements, pathology, forensics and ballistics analysis and we have stated to the coroner that it will be completed within four to six months,"he added.

    The Press Association: Man 'not armed when shot by police'

    now if the gun was found lobbed over a fence 14 feet away is it not probable that it was in his hand at some point or have the community of tottenham discoved the secrets of transporters ala star trek
  2. If the Police Officer believes himself to be in mortal danger from the suspect it's irrelevant as to whether the suspect was carrying a firearm or not.

    Unfortunately seeing the complete lack of courage, loyalty and integrity displayed by some senior Police Officers I suspect it will be very relevant.

    For the Officer who fired the fatal shot it must be hell as he'll be fully aware of previous incidents and how well the firearms officers were (not) supported. I wonder if it will be down to his colleagues potentially refusing to bear arms (as with the shooting of de menezes) that will best protect him.
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  3. It's the one thing that absolutely terrifies politicians. If armed plod handed in their gats there would be nobody to protect them from their own population.
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  4. The armed Police were on the verge of doing just that a few year ago and the politicians caved in. I can't remember what the argument was about.
  5. it was to do with the irish/scot bloke with the table leg a load of shots handed or said they would handin tickets and it took a personal visit from the commish to sort things out
  6. Was'nt confined to the Met, either. AFO's in Forces across the UK said they would do the same and refuse to carry Firearms.

    As someone else pointed out, nothing concentrates the minds of politicians like the possibility of being left without armed close protection...
  7. "People should not fear their Governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.":twisted:
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  8. reading the article on the papers site they raise a couple of points

    The weapon Duggan obtained was in a shoe box, in a sock, with a small hole cut away for the barrel.- and shoeboxes are well know for the ballistic properties

    • The weapon was a converted BBM "Bruni" self-loading pistol. It contained one bullet.- the converted Bruni guns are notrious and have to the best of my knowledge been banned, so a banned blank firere converted to live fire

    • Neither Duggan's DNA nor fingerprints have yet been recovered from the sock or the weapon. His fingerprints have been found on the shoe box, which was found in the back of the hired vehicle.- whole point of putting guns in socks is not to leav forensics

    • Evidence suggests Duggan's weapon was not fired.- didn't have to be holding/pointing it is enough
  9. As others have stated, it was'nt necessary for Duggen to be in possession of a firearm to be legally shot and killed. It only matters that the officer who fired the shot honestly believed that Duggen was armed and that he had to open fire to preserve his own life and/or the lives of others.

    And let's be brutally honest here: I doubt we lost the cure for cancer.
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  10. well he was holding it at some point if they stopped him and the gun was found thrown over a fence 10 feet away
  11. Silly speculation perhaps but:

    As i recall two rounds were fired. One killed Duggan but other did not strike him. Rather, it ricocheted and lodged in an officers radio. Anything mentioned that might suggest the round might have struck his weapon causing it to fly 10-14ft? Hardly a considerable distance.
  12. both hit him one centremass the other a t&t to his bicep so your right that could've jolted his arm causing the gun to be thrown

    my point is he was stopped and in the time between exting the car and being shot he held in his hand (even for the purpose of throwing) a illegal handgun
  13. what sort of gangster carry's a gat with only a single round in it?
    challenged by armed police doing anything remotely other than what they tell you to do = being shot.
  14. it might have been all that was with it when purchased, he'd only just picked it up and a guys in court for using it in another crime days earlier

    posible he was going to dispose of it for first slag, but the fact is he was carrying it when stopped so tough shit
  15. It's a piece to pop a cap in yer ass, innit!