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Makes me sick - civil servants dont you love them

#3
Are we really suprised by this ? Once again it just shows that the Govt have no inclination to support our troops doing thier job. For FCO staff in Afghanistan its a nightmare.. the Embassy there in Kabul had to spend £xxx (cant recall how much but it was a damn lot !!) on a SWIMMING POOL (!!!!!) for the dips to relax in when the guys in Helmand couldn't get fresh bottled water... one rule for them one rule for us.. and we wonder why they dont listen to the public - Odin forbid that they get off thier gravy trains...
 
#5
The article does say MOD staff. Obviously they are civil servants, but they do seem to be working on a different system to the rest. (claims their monthly bonuses for working in the sandpits in the thousands!). If true, and I expect it may not be that grand, then it is clearly disproportionate AND immoral (and only for SENIOR civil servants). I would like to add that I was offerred the chance to work in Basra (yes I am a civil servant) but any extra monies were MOST CERTAINLY nowhere near the figures stated in the article (but then again I am not MOD). I earnt just as much (a few hundred a month extra) working in Belgium in the end. (Only because they wouldn't give me a gimpy for Iraq).
 
#6
Incidently, I am not FCO. They really do get a good deal out of it I agree. I work alongside them, in the same countries, and get far far less in payments then they do. Still, who said life was fair.
 
#7
From the article;

"A spokesman for the MoD said: "Civilians deployed by the MoD to Iraq and Afghanistan do an excellent job in supporting military operations"

Shame its not on the firing range.
 
#8
Before we all get confused and start ranting about FCO staff, swimming pools and hardened cover can we read the article and recognise that this relates to

MOD civil servants, ie our lot as well

Cheers
 
#9
"Postings usually last for six months but many staff extend their tours to 12 months because of the financial incentives"

.....the obvious deduction from this is that either the work cannot be particularly demanding or dangerous, or that the incentives are over-generous.

"They are often required to work extremely long hours in dangerous conditions they are not expected to face in their normal terms of employment."

.....logically then one can only reach the conclusion that the additional allowance of between £4K and £8K, payable to reflect the above operational conditions, should be used as a reference point for future AFPRB negotiations in order to reflect the disparity betwen normal civilian employment conditions and those endured by the military counterpart.

PAW
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#10
OK, reality check. I have worked in Iraq both as a Solider, and as a Civil Servant. The allowances are there, and until last year were around £1,500 a month, plus overtime. This year this was changed to a single allowance which includes overtime - so between £3,000 and £6,000 probably is not bad.

A few things to note, though:

1. ALL THIS IS TAXABLE. All UK Civil Servants are taxed, same as Soldiers. DfiD, however, and other Government Depts, rely heavily on contractors, and these are usually 'based overseas', and avoid UK Tax. The MOD does not employ this sort of contrctor, however.

2. These people are volunteers - they don't HAVE to do it, and, if they aren't paid enough, they won't. There is still a shortage of volunteers, despite these allowances, so it's not the money that's tempting them.

3. These allowances pale into nothing compared to the money earned by Contractors - Paradigm, Police instrutors, other Comms, etc. Of course, we can do without our Paradigm contractors, can't we - who needs welfare Comms?


In summary - if you want Civil Servants, you have to pay them. As we still can't get enough volunteers, perhaps we aren't paying enough?


Edited to add: typical daft rent-a-quote from Patrick Mercer: "It can't be right that soldiers who are expected to face the dangers of combat are paid less than civil servants. There is no logic to this." Yes there is, you idiot - Soldiers = Soldiers, Civil Servants = Civil Servants. they are DIFFERENT. They do DIFFERENT JOBS. And there are plenty of Soldiers paid a great deal more than me, that's for sure, allowances or no!
 
#11
OldSnowy said:
In summary - if you want Civil Servants, you have to pay them. As we still can't get enough volunteers, perhaps we aren't paying enough?
OS

......or perhaps we might desire an Army of sufficient breadth and depth to enable it to deliver on ops without CONDO and CS sp. Just a thought.

PAW
 
#12
pombsen-armchair-warrior said:
OldSnowy said:
In summary - if you want Civil Servants, you have to pay them. As we still can't get enough volunteers, perhaps we aren't paying enough?
OS

......or perhaps we might desire an Army of sufficient breadth and depth to enable it to deliver on ops without CONDO and CS sp. Just a thought.

PAW
Careful, PAW! Showing too much cynicism there.....and way too much common sense for HMG to ever sign up for it. :(
 
#13
I've often thought about deploying somewhere as a civvy and know that they give you an extra couple of quid for the job you're doing.

Just done a quick check of the moolah involved and jesus fucking christ. At my grade; if I deployed to Iraq I'd get an extra £7250 a month.

Now while the taxman would be rubbing his little hands with glee and the mrs would be spending like it's going out of fashion, even I think that's somewhat excessive per month.

However, as Oldsnowy says. The skill sets are lacking in the forces and it's still cheaper than outsourcing it. Therefore, that's the way it is.

Now where are those aplication forms?
 
#14
OldSnowy said:
OK, reality check. I have worked in Iraq both as a Solider, and as a Civil Servant. The allowances are there, and until last year were around £1,500 a month, plus overtime. This year this was changed to a single allowance which includes overtime - so between £3,000 and £6,000 probably is not bad.

A few things to note, though:

1. ALL THIS IS TAXABLE. All UK Civil Servants are taxed, same as Soldiers. DfiD, however, and other Government Depts, rely heavily on contractors, and these are usually 'based overseas', and avoid UK Tax. The MOD does not employ this sort of contrctor, however.

2. These people are volunteers - they don't HAVE to do it, and, if they aren't paid enough, they won't. There is still a shortage of volunteers, despite these allowances, so it's not the money that's tempting them.

3. These allowances pale into nothing compared to the money earned by Contractors - Paradigm, Police instrutors, other Comms, etc. Of course, we can do without our Paradigm contractors, can't we - who needs welfare Comms?


In summary - if you want Civil Servants, you have to pay them. As we still can't get enough volunteers, perhaps we aren't paying enough?


Edited to add: typical daft rent-a-quote from Patrick Mercer: "It can't be right that soldiers who are expected to face the dangers of combat are paid less than civil servants. There is no logic to this." Yes there is, you idiot - Soldiers = Soldiers, Civil Servants = Civil Servants. they are DIFFERENT. They do DIFFERENT JOBS. And there are plenty of Soldiers paid a great deal more than me, that's for sure, allowances or no!
Also ex mil and CS (could only hack one year before I got fed up) but now out in defence industry.

Just like to add that CS don't get any X factor in their wages (as to be expected) and in general wages are not that good compared to the military.

As indicated above you have got to give them a reason to 'volunteer' to go to these places and cold hard cash is normally the way it is done.

Remember how hard it is to convince your missus that everything will be alright but you have to deploy because the military tells you to? Imagine explaining that to the missus but with no military to blame and the main reason is possibly that the money will come in handy!!
 
#15
Frankly I am not surprised that the incentives have to be great - the civil service does not pay well at all and therefore why would you taken on the risk without some serious finacial incentives?

My only complaint about them on ops was that every night when my unit were dry, they were uproariously pissed and used to keep me awake, despite my asking politely(initially) for them to have some consideration.
 
#17
OldSnowy said:
OK, reality check. I have worked in Iraq both as a Solider, and as a Civil Servant. The allowances are there, and until last year were around £1,500 a month, plus overtime. This year this was changed to a single allowance which includes overtime - so between £3,000 and £6,000 probably is not bad.

A few things to note, though:

1. ALL THIS IS TAXABLE. All UK Civil Servants are taxed, same as Soldiers. DfiD, however, and other Government Depts, rely heavily on contractors, and these are usually 'based overseas', and avoid UK Tax. The MOD does not employ this sort of contrctor, however.

2. These people are volunteers - they don't HAVE to do it, and, if they aren't paid enough, they won't. There is still a shortage of volunteers, despite these allowances, so it's not the money that's tempting them.

3. These allowances pale into nothing compared to the money earned by Contractors - Paradigm, Police instrutors, other Comms, etc. Of course, we can do without our Paradigm contractors, can't we - who needs welfare Comms?


In summary - if you want Civil Servants, you have to pay them. As we still can't get enough volunteers, perhaps we aren't paying enough?

Edited to add: typical daft rent-a-quote from Patrick Mercer: "It can't be right that soldiers who are expected to face the dangers of combat are paid less than civil servants. There is no logic to this." Yes there is, you idiot - Soldiers = Soldiers, Civil Servants = Civil Servants. they are DIFFERENT. They do DIFFERENT JOBS. And there are plenty of Soldiers paid a great deal more than me, that's for sure, allowances or no!

OK Where do I apply ? :?
 
#18
I honestly can't see the problem here. I have served alongside the FCO in Kabul in particular and I was exasperated that when the PUS arrived for a visit - what was the first thing on the list ? Our anti-narcotics policy ? Security for workers ? Nope it was the lack of swimming pool !

But to get back on track - they simply will not deploy to these places if they are not rewarded. Slightly mecenary maybe but they joined the FCO to be based in Geneva, Paris, New York or some such place. And if they want to attract the best people to the sh!t holes then they need to have generous allowances or people will simply refuse the posting.

Lets face it, half of us (probably more) don't want to be there and if asked if we wanted to spend 6 months away we would tell them to rod off. Its no different for them.
 
#19
I must be in a different civil service. Whilst the money doesn't look good on paper, in reality it is actually ok. I left as a sgt and after 4 years in the civil service (and one promotion) I am earning a far better wage than I in did in the Army (granted though, the Gov. are trying to give me a wage decrease :cry: ). I regulaly spend time away from home (across europe) but am very reasonably (in my opinion....many I work with would complain it's not enough) compensated for this inconvinience. I too would agree that financial incentives need to be in place to generate the interest required to work in Iraq/Afghan, and would argue that for many they would require huge financial incentives. Comparitively I would only be about 300 quid better off in a war zone than where i am now, unless of course the press can be believed! In which case the wife will be packing my bags :evil:

Horses for courses. I have lost much of my integrity when it comes to work now. :wink:
 
#20
sc_obvious said:
I honestly can't see the problem here. I have served alongside the FCO in Kabul in particular and I was exasperated that when the PUS arrived for a visit - what was the first thing on the list ? Our anti-narcotics policy ? Security for workers ? Nope it was the lack of swimming pool !

But to get back on track - they simply will not deploy to these places if they are not rewarded. Slightly mecenary maybe but they joined the FCO to be based in Geneva, Paris, New York or some such place. And if they want to attract the best people to the sh!t holes then they need to have generous allowances or people will simply refuse the posting.

Lets face it, half of us (probably more) don't want to be there and if asked if we wanted to spend 6 months away we would tell them to rod off. Its no different for them.
What makes you think that Civil servants are the best people? The finest people we have are clearly those doing the business in Helmand or Basra whilst being paid a relative pittance.

Clearly the recruiting and retention problems the army is beginning to see is a clear result of the BEST people not being rewarded or even appreciated.
 

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