M1 carbine

Discussion in 'Military History and Militaria' started by stoatman, May 25, 2005.

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  1. I really shouldn't let this worry me, but I'm bored and I've got little better to do.

    On WW2incolor, TINWALT is still maintaining that the M1 carbine is/was an assault rifle, even though it does not have all 3 defining features of one, namely:

    1. Is a rifled arm designed to be fired from the shoulder
    2. Fires ammunition intermediate in power between pistol and rifle ammunition
    3. Is capable of being fired in either semi- or fully-automatic modes.

    He seems to be pretty much set against almost the whole world on this one, yet still maintains it's objective fact that it was an assault rifle because it was used in the assault, and that there was nothing to compare it to at the time, even though the MP43/Stg44 is as modern an assault rifle as the AK47. We've conceded that the M2 carbine (select-fire version) falls broadly in the definition, but really can't replace the rifle so isn't really an assault rifle.

    The debate went into the role of the assault rifle, which is to replace the rifle and the SMG. He will not acknowledge this, he thinks that it's a rifle which is used in the assault. He's come out with some great ones about assault rifles never,ever being used at 600m (despite this being British doctrine for the SA-80), having to have the barrel raised to rediculous angles to reach the target at 600m (with 5.56mm it's 20MOA) and when the bullet gets there it's got no power left anyway (a 5.56mm has about 500ftlb left) and that its accuracy will be worse in angle than at 500m (which is of course crap). Talk about the effective range of the M1 carbine cartridge has been shrugged off.

    There's also been some prize moments when he's said that the British commonwealth doesn't exist, and that no non-US citizens serve in the US forces. Also that MGs and cannon are used for section fire, not the individual weapons of the members of the section. He also thinks that he's an expert on the development of the jet engine and that it was developped independently in the UK, US and Germany, despite the fact that we bunged the US the plans, a complete engine, and Frank Whittle to get them started. He even contradicted a forum member with a degree in turbomachinery about the functioning of jet engines.

    This is where it's going on at the moment, but it keeps popping up over the forum:


    As I say, he's just screaming it blue in our faces as if it's objective fact whilst claiming that we're all walts.

    There are an awful lot of militaria buffs on here - so what's your opinion?

    I know this is semantics and boring, but when you've got an eejit who is wrong but won't admit it it's a challenge.

    (edited for clarity - a cut-and-paste was used with a slightly different lead-in)
  2. I know this wasn't the question but I couldn't give a toss about what kind of shooty stick they give me. I've read through TINWALTS posts and he seems to be the kind of chap you just don't argue with - purely because he'll never admit he is wrong about aything and you'll only end up boring yourself senseless. I suggest ignoring him.
  3. the m1 carbine was an assault rifle?

    easy to reply: NO
  4. Might be an idea. The current one he can't get his head around is that nickel alloy and air don't have the same density. My statement that they don't has got him claiming I am:
    I know I should leave well alone, but baiting the terminally dumb into saying things like that is just far too much fun :twisted:
  5. Oh, it looks like he's actually registered - someone's voted "yes"!!! :lol:
  6. Carbine; noun : Light Automatic Rifle

    My 2 pence worth: A Carbine was designed to replace the Pistol and SMG, an Assault Rifle was designed to replace the SMG and Rifle.
  7. I fired an RUC M1 crapbine many years ago, tbh I would had rather have shot my gentalmans glue at the target than that bag-o-sh1te. Its a crappy Rifle, Not fit for the Infantry.
  8. Isn't it called the M1 carbine?

    The dictionaries define "carbine" as "light automatic rifle" or "shortened rifle".

    According to Modern Firearms website the specification was for a lightweight shoulder arm to replace service handguns for second-line (non-fighting) troops. I have read this definition elsewhere (geek), and Modern Firearms use the term "personal defence weapon".

    As second-line and non-fighting troops are not involved in an assault (infantry squads were equipped at the time with the M1 Garand, BAR and Thompson with the M1 carbine replacing the pistol) then this is not an assault rifle. If someone was so bored as to try and work out the percentage of troops carrying the thing based on their role then this would further rebut the "assault rifle" claim.

    I must be bored, but pedantry is such a temptation....
  9. I've seen some dogs that were terrible & could be described as a crapbine - but when cared for they work fine. There's one at my club that's ex-police and is diabolical. Thank god we don't shout "STOPPAGE!" all the time as civvies! :lol:
  10. I'm going over to the wwII in colour site now because i think he might be a walt and am going to expose him. (In a very subtle and cunning way.)
  11. I must be bored.

    Where does the term "assault rifle" originate? Isn't it a manufacturer's term that has been adopted by cheap thriller-writers? The US have a legal definition used for sales restrictions, since lifted by Dubya, quoted from www.guncite.com:

    So the M1A1 "paratrooper" version with pistol grip and folding stock would be categorised as an "assault weapon" but its older sister - the humble M1 carbine would not be an "assault weapon" as it has a solid wood stock and no pistol grip. If Dubya hadn't scrapped the 1994 bill, it would be possible to have one's cake and eat it - the M1 Carbine would have existed in a Schrodinger's Cat-like state of being an assault weapon and not being an assault weapon.

    Indeed, isn't the foremost weapon in the world that might be referred to in such hagiographic terms - the beloved L85A1/A2 - merely described by Her Majesty's Armed Forces as the "Rifle" or "Individual Weapon"?

    A highly impressive list of "L" number designations is at the following website for the terminally bored:

  12. He claims to be an heir to Dingwall castle - what a cock end
  13. I think the term Assault rifle was first used by the Boxheads in WW2 to refer to their STG 43 & 44.
  14. Don't confuse the term "assault weapon" which deals with cosmetic features of rifles in the 1994 US ban and was so-called to make people who knew no better think about full-auto wpns, with a true assault rifle.

    Yes, the Germans coined the term (lit. "storm rifle"), and it became the accepted description of a category of select-fire rifles firing intermediate categories. There's also "battle rifles" (Garand, SLR, M14 etc), just to confuse things :D There's thus another debate as to whether a select-fire FAL or M14 is a battle rifle or an assault rifle :roll:
  15. Didnt they use the term because adolf only wanted rifles made .The cat came out of the bag supposedly when adolf met some eastern front vets and asked what they needed and they said more stg s .Bet that took some explaining :lol:
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