LSW, LMG and 60mm to go

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
Our last exercise was a COIN type scenario and the gimpy was carried despite being mounted on every vehicle. The ex before we were in stripped down plate carrier and battle belts training OBUA with the police (they're f***ing awesome) the GPMG would've been unusable and an utter liability to the man carrying it, the LSW unworkable (length) but if the LMG was still available it would've been usable.
Which country ?
Which police ?
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
isn’t the advantage of a beaten zone that you can suppress an area target (rather than a point target)?
Yes... with enough ammunition and a stable enough firing point. Which in practice means 20+ round bursts with GPMG(SF).

But, "beaten zone" is about fire that's suppressing a long, narrow ellipse aligned along the gun-target line (interdicting a road or trail, for instance); it doesn't help with point targets.
 
Whether that Infantry Section is ground role, Mech, Armoured is immaterial.

The resupply chain is the same - Sect Comd - Pl Sgt - CSM - Ech

Within that, contrary to what some people might think, there is no direct interaction with CSS

There might be an interaction to RV and pick up resupply direct from a CSS C/S.

Why people are getting their frillies in a twist about people within that reporting chain not having intimate knowledge of how CSS works is a little bit baffling.

You’re quite right, the CSS chain is for Q staff to interact with, the provide for their unit. My earlier comment about the infantry being the worst regarding log matters is not because the section 2i/c isn’t aware of the supply chain, but rather that Q staff ignore advice and expect the ammo pixies to read their mind and produce ammo at the drop of a hat.
 

HE117

LE
You’re quite right, the CSS chain is for Q staff to interact with, the provide for their unit. My earlier comment about the infantry being the worst regarding log matters is not because the section 2i/c isn’t aware of the supply chain, but rather that Q staff ignore advice and expect the ammo pixies to read their mind and produce ammo at the drop of a hat.

Having sat on the staff for a considerable (cough) time..
The issue of non cooperation between G and Q goes back a long way, and infects the whole of the staff system. I have on many occasions pointed out the physical distancing that has occurred over the years with HQs splitting into G2/G2 HQs and G1/G4 ones.. DIring the cold war, the two groupings were meters apart in the same warehouse. In the Gulf they were in separate camps. In Afghan they were in separate provinces and took all day to go from one to the other...

We never, ever got any indication of any proposed G3 activity until after it happened. I used to have to drive over to the HQ in Iraq and stand in the G3 In tray before they would tell me anything or give me a clue they were going kinetic. I had some slightly out of date 81 Para Illuminating that I suggested might be useful to counter raids on pipelines, but that it was in short supply and when it was gone, it was gone. The result.. the two Inf battalions were having competitions as to how many bombs they could fire in a night! I spotted at least six bombs in the air at one time a few days later. When I pointed out that this was perhaps questionable tactics, the reaction was that "what was I, an effing loggie, doing telling them their business". That went down well, particularly when I re-presented my log brief to the Commander showing where the two individuals had been specifically warned about the supply state... (I can play games as well!)

..but yes, tactics win battles, Logistics loses wars...
 

itchy300

Old-Salt
You're right in that it was a sieze and hold not lone gunman with civpop . Iirc, LSW covered assualting troops flanks and top windows. The assualt was split into 3, 1 covering the lower floor and corners of the facing wall, 2 got the ladders out and went up. 3rd was LSW fire support. LSW then brought in take over 1 as they then filtered in after 2 working down. Because the field of fire was limited at ground level due to the orientation of the house wrt to the street, LSW brought in to top floor to cover more area.
Long time ago, it's probably been re written a few times.
Sounds familiar, certainly within what we were taught at the time. Just to demonstrate how different it is generally you would attack from a corner rather than square onto a building and the days of sending section after section into a building are gone, you use a battalion up just clearing 1 street. 6 man team goes into a building, clearing top down when possible.

We've come full circle post Herrick/telic to the old 'training for A war not THE war' and we were trying to use a lot of tools for jobs they were never really intended for which ended up with them being seen as ineffective and then binned eg LSW, LMG, combat shotgun, 51+60mm mortars etc... When with a little hindsight we should've held onto them where practical so we at least had the option to bring them back out when needed
 
Sounds familiar, certainly within what we were taught at the time. Just to demonstrate how different it is generally you would attack from a corner rather than square onto a building and the days of sending section after section into a building are gone, you use a battalion up just clearing 1 street. 6 man team goes into a building, clearing top down when possible.

We've come full circle post Herrick/telic to the old 'training for A war not THE war' and we were trying to use a lot of tools for jobs they were never really intended for which ended up with them being seen as ineffective and then binned eg LSW, LMG, combat shotgun, 51+60mm mortars etc... When with a little hindsight we should've held onto them where practical so we at least had the option to bring them back out when needed
The problem with holding onto obsolete weapons systems is partly the parts and ammo stocks, but the additional training required to stay current in them.
More range time required, weapon handling tests....
 
The problem with holding onto obsolete weapons systems is partly the parts and ammo stocks, but the additional training required to stay current in them.
More range time required, weapon handling tests....

We don’t hold on to obsolete weapon systems, we may hold on to obsolescent ones though ;-)
 
Sounds familiar, certainly within what we were taught at the time. Just to demonstrate how different it is generally you would attack from a corner rather than square onto a building and the days of sending section after section into a building are gone, you use a battalion up just clearing 1 street. 6 man team goes into a building, clearing top down when possible.

We've come full circle post Herrick/telic to the old 'training for A war not THE war' and we were trying to use a lot of tools for jobs they were never really intended for which ended up with them being seen as ineffective and then binned eg LSW, LMG, combat shotgun, 51+60mm mortars etc... When with a little hindsight we should've held onto them where practical so we at least had the option to bring them back out when needed

A suggestion that we use the CG/Milan to create a bfo hole wasn't allowed by DS. :D
The thought then was a section gone for every platoon in terms of cas. I think the house was turned into a fort ( with CG team in situ looking for the landrover-BMP. ) with help of "defensive supplies" fortuitously placed in the basement. All to be replaced at endex.
Anyway, all old hat now.
 
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isn’t the advantage of a beaten zone that you can suppress an area target (rather than a point target)?
Yes, but you can do it with the mount. If it’s inherent to the gun you are unable to ever engage a point target.
 
A suggestion that we use the CG/Milan to create a bfo hole wasn't allowed by DS. :D
The thought then was a section gone for every platoon in terms of cas. I think the house was turned into a fort ( with CG team in situ looking for the landrover-BMP. ) with help of "defensive supplies" fortuitously placed in the basement. All to be replaced at endex.
Anyway, all old hat now.

That’s great if you can fit through a hole about 4in in diameter. I’d hazard a guess you might snag a pouch.
 
That’s great if you can fit through a hole about 4in in diameter. I’d hazard a guess you might snag a pouch.

That shows you the state of knowledge at the time lol. The assumption was it would blow a hole coz it made a bang. Probably why the DS said no.

In the real world, The effect in the room behind might be interesting though.
 
A1, A2 Ech's and CQMS's backed up by a whole cohort of CSS.
...and if you're 3 PARA at Mount Longdon, that "whole cohort of CSS" had to include civvy farmers driving tractor/trailers, and even 17-year-old-girls driving Landrovers. Because carrying kit that "last mile" to and from A1 Ech turned out to be rather difficult.

I recommend "Logistics in the Falklands War", by Kenneth L Privatsky
 
...and if you're 3 PARA at Mount Longdon, that "whole cohort of CSS" had to include civvy farmers driving tractor/trailers, and even 17-year-old-girls driving Landrovers. Because carrying kit that "last mile" to and from A1 Ech turned out to be rather difficult.

Perhaps you would have kept that comment to yourself if you had read my previous comment saying I didn't care if it was delivered by Stobarts / DHL / train etc.

I don't need to read a book on the difficulties faced in the Falklands - I was there and experienced it.

I also don't read too much into comments by someone who wants to argue the toss over the Section range of the SLR ( Even though they are wrong ) and their excuse when called out was that they had ' Read something wrong '

Because reading about something beats the 1st hand experience of something hands down and twice on a Sunday.
 
You’re quite right, the CSS chain is for Q staff to interact with, the provide for their unit. My earlier comment about the infantry being the worst regarding log matters is not because the section 2i/c isn’t aware of the supply chain, but rather that Q staff ignore advice and expect the ammo pixies to read their mind and produce ammo at the drop of a hat.

Amazing that such a simple concept is completely alien to a few loudmouths, who for some reason, felt the need to bump their gums and show their own ignorance, rather than bellow about other people's perceived ignorance.

That Q Staff being a maximum of 4 people out of a 600 strong unit.

The other 596 are all ignorant idiots and then people scratch their heads trying to figure out why the British Army has so many problems.
 
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I don't need to read a book on the difficulties faced in the Falklands - I was there and experienced it.
Which unit did you fight with during the Falklands war?
 

napier

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
Any more personal arguments/insults and thread bans will follow. This is a sensible forum and if you can't be civil, you can leave.
 
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