Long Range Surveillance Det in Iraq

#2
tomahawk6 said:
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=968

Pretty accurate story from debka.
They are armed with newly-issued M-14 rifles which have never been surpassed as a marksman’s weapon
????????

Good to see the deployment of the troops but the M14 the best sniper rifle? Give me a No4T any day.
 
#3
scalieback said:
tomahawk6 said:
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=968

Pretty accurate story from debka.
They are armed with newly-issued M-14 rifles which have never been surpassed as a marksman’s weapon
????????

Good to see the deployment of the troops but the M14 the best sniper rifle? Give me a No4T any day.
While I agree that calling the M-14 the best sniper rifle ever is a stretch, I'd take it anyday over the Enfield.
 
#4
scalieback said:
the M14 the best sniper rifle? Give me a No4T any day.
I think I read on this site that a Canadian soldier scored a kill shot at over a mile with a Barrett .50 BMG semiautomatic rifle.

M14/M1A, with a good scope, bipod, capable of superb performance out to about 800 yards. Also, I don't know of a rifle with better factory iron sights.

Not familiar with "No4T."
 
#5
The No4 T was the old lee enfield service rifle but built by Holand and Holland to sporting specs. it was very accurate given the limitations of a flexible action.

The same goes for the M14 ( I thought the sniper version was th M21 but could be wrong) it is very accurate for what it is, a semi auto.

In the long range stakes a bolt action will always be a better bet, due to its inherent ridgidity. Best all round is a combination of Winchester Model 70 .300 win Mag and a good scope.

mind you having a mag of 20 and rapid shots up your sleave cant hurt if the brown stuff hits the fan.
 
#6
In gulf war1 I met up with a couple of Yank snipers outside the Emires stadium in Kuwait city, they were carrying a very long case which contained a 50cal snipers weapon with the biggest scope I have ever seen on it. They were saying that with the right wind conditions and elevated position they could do a head shot at about a mile and a good kill chest shot at nearly 2 miles. I don't know how true that is being a REMF but when I got down behind it on it's bi-pod I was gob smacked by the sight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll:
 
#7


A U.S. Marine scout sniper scans for insurgents in the streets and buildings along the edge of Fallujah, Iraq, during the first hours of Operation al Fajr (New Dawn) on Nov. 8, 2004. The Marine is assigned to Headquarters Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division
 
#8
yeoman said:
The No4 T was the old lee enfield service rifle but built by Holand and Holland to sporting specs. it was very accurate given the limitations of a flexible action.

The same goes for the M14 ( I thought the sniper version was th M21 but could be wrong) it is very accurate for what it is, a semi auto.

In the long range stakes a bolt action will always be a better bet, due to its inherent ridgidity. Best all round is a combination of Winchester Model 70 .300 win Mag and a good scope.

mind you having a mag of 20 and rapid shots up your sleave cant hurt if the brown stuff hits the fan.
You're right about the M21, they also made a later version, the M24 which was bolt action.
Although the LE No4 is probably the better dedicated snipers rifle, the M14 is more useful in "up-tempo" situations.
I remember my first experience of the M14, it is a sweet weapon, feels and sounds just right, which may be a little subjective, but it always puts a big grin on my ugly mug. :D
 
#9
Topper said:
yeoman said:
The No4 T was the old lee enfield service rifle but built by Holand and Holland to sporting specs. it was very accurate given the limitations of a flexible action.

The same goes for the M14 ( I thought the sniper version was th M21 but could be wrong) it is very accurate for what it is, a semi auto.

In the long range stakes a bolt action will always be a better bet, due to its inherent ridgidity. Best all round is a combination of Winchester Model 70 .300 win Mag and a good scope.

mind you having a mag of 20 and rapid shots up your sleave cant hurt if the brown stuff hits the fan.
You're right about the M21, they also made a later version, the M24 which was bolt action.
Although the LE No4 is probably the better dedicated snipers rifle, the M14 is more useful in "up-tempo" situations.
I remember my first experience of the M14, it is a sweet weapon, feels and sounds just right, which may be a little subjective, but it always puts a big grin on my ugly mug. :D
I was thinking more along the 'sign' angle as well. The M14/M1A is a semi-auto. With the bolt action LE No4T, it's a lot easier to keep hold of the case.
 
#10
Is it true that there's an odd clearance procedure for the M14 because it can be damaged by "firing" empty?
 
#11
doctordeath said:
In gulf war1 I met up with a couple of Yank snipers outside the Emires stadium in Kuwait city, they were carrying a very long case which contained a 50cal snipers weapon with the biggest scope I have ever seen on it. They were saying that with the right wind conditions and elevated position they could do a head shot at about a mile and a good kill chest shot at nearly 2 miles. I don't know how true that is being a REMF but when I got down behind it on it's bi-pod I was gob smacked by the sight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll:
They're BS-ing you, there are reports of occasional 1 mile body shots with the Barratt.

For the proponents of the No.4T, it's not on a par with modern rifles in terms of accuracy or ergonomics (about 2 MOA compared with <1MOA).
 
#12
Biscuits_Brown said:
Is it true that there's an odd clearance procedure for the M14 because it can be damaged by "firing" empty?
I'm not aware of any problems with dry firing, perhaps that was on the early model.
 
#13
scalieback said:
Topper said:
yeoman said:
The No4 T was the old lee enfield service rifle but built by Holand and Holland to sporting specs. it was very accurate given the limitations of a flexible action.

The same goes for the M14 ( I thought the sniper version was th M21 but could be wrong) it is very accurate for what it is, a semi auto.

In the long range stakes a bolt action will always be a better bet, due to its inherent ridgidity. Best all round is a combination of Winchester Model 70 .300 win Mag and a good scope.

mind you having a mag of 20 and rapid shots up your sleave cant hurt if the brown stuff hits the fan.
You're right about the M21, they also made a later version, the M24 which was bolt action.
Although the LE No4 is probably the better dedicated snipers rifle, the M14 is more useful in "up-tempo" situations.
I remember my first experience of the M14, it is a sweet weapon, feels and sounds just right, which may be a little subjective, but it always puts a big grin on my ugly mug. :D
I was thinking more along the 'sign' angle as well. The M14/M1A is a semi-auto. With the bolt action LE No4T, it's a lot easier to keep hold of the case.
Ah, I see where you're coming from. Its a good point SB.
 
#14
Question.

Why do you think all old ranges in the UK are 1000 yds?

After the problems and the transition in the infantry during the Boar war the army taught its soldiers (all infantry) to shoot out to 1000 yds. The effects of this can be seen in Flanders at the start WW1. This was continued through the 30s with the 2nd BEF able to engage and kill the enemy at longer range. Unfortunately war had changed and assault weapons had come of age.

Some anecdotes from my grandfather who was an infantry soldier in both wars,

On talking to soldiers after Dunkirk the feeling was the MP38 was a far better weapon than the SMLE and they were outclassed. His comment was that with a rifle you could kill the enemy long before they got in range of the SMG.

When instructing recruits in shooting he would set up a tin on a 4ft screen and fire at it from 1000yds to show what a good shot could do. The recruits where suitably impressed when the tin fell off. As he said with a grin on his face it did not mater what part of the screen he hit, the tin would fall off.

The point, he could hit a 4ft screen at 1000yds every time without thinking about it and so could all infantry. So jumping up and down with joy because a sniper can hit at 800m with a visual aid is not impressive. With an SLR I could consistently hit a fig 11 at 600m with iron sights. And I’m and average shot.
 
#15
offog said:
Question.

Why do you think all old ranges in the UK are 1000 yds?

After the problems and the transition in the infantry during the Boar war the army taught its soldiers (all infantry) to shoot out to 1000 yds. The effects of this can be seen in Flanders at the start WW1. This was continued through the 30s with the 2nd BEF able to engage and kill the enemy at longer range. Unfortunately war had changed and assault weapons had come of age.

Some anecdotes from my grandfather who was an infantry soldier in both wars,

On talking to soldiers after Dunkirk the feeling was the MP38 was a far better weapon than the SMLE and they were outclassed. His comment was that with a rifle you could kill the enemy long before they got in range of the SMG.

When instructing recruits in shooting he would set up a tin on a 4ft screen and fire at it from 1000yds to show what a good shot could do. The recruits where suitably impressed when the tin fell off. As he said with a grin on his face it did not mater what part of the screen he hit, the tin would fall off.

The point, he could hit a 4ft screen at 1000yds every time without thinking about it and so could all infantry. So jumping up and down with joy because a sniper can hit at 800m with a visual aid is not impressive. With an SLR I could consistently hit a fig 11 at 600m with iron sights. And I’m and average shot.
I tend to agree, there is an over-emphasis on optical sights these days. A good shooter can achieve remarkable results over iron sights with the simple expedient of "Kentucky windage" hold off & hold over. This kind of shooting tends to be seen as a black art these days, whereas, modern marksmanship techniques emphasize the scientific aspects of ballistics.
 
#16
offog said:
The point, he could hit a 4ft screen at 1000yds every time without thinking about it and so could all infantry. So jumping up and down with joy because a sniper can hit at 800m with a visual aid is not impressive. With an SLR I could consistently hit a fig 11 at 600m with iron sights. And I’m and average shot.
Good point offog. In WWII, it was common for GI's (with a little practice) to hit targets at 800 yards with the Garand and iron sights. The old skills are being slowly lost.
 
#17
Optics are easier to use under stress, and help you to be able to shoot at a hard to see target.

However, the combination of people learning to shoot with an SA-80 and a SUSAT means that they often don't know how to shoot a proper rifle (i.e. trad. configuration, iron sights). Optics may just give you that edge that you need.
 
#18
yeoman said:
In the long range stakes a bolt action will always be a better bet, due to its inherent ridgidity. Best all round is a combination of Winchester Model 70 .300 win Mag and a good scope.
"Best all-round" is of course a matter of opinion; otherwise you'd only ever see Winchester 70s on the firing point...... One acquaintance swears by the RPA Quadlock, for instance.

Worth noting that the Germans, even with a huge attack of "Not Invented Here", still picked the Accuracy International Model AW in .300 Win Mag as their service sniper rifle. Which means that the AI is the issue sniper rifle in UK, Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, etc, etc.......
 
#19
Topper said:
I tend to agree, there is an over-emphasis on optical sights these days. A good shooter can achieve remarkable results over iron sights with the simple expedient of "Kentucky windage" hold off & hold over. This kind of shooting tends to be seen as a black art these days, whereas, modern marksmanship techniques emphasize the scientific aspects of ballistics.
Errrrr.....no. Modern marksmanship techniques in Benchrest shooting, perhaps. Elsewhere, the "nut behind the butt" is the focus of any sensible effort.

If you took a trip to Bisley during the NSRA meeting, you'd meet several hundred practitioners of your "black art" of wind-doping using iron sights. It's not hard, you just need to get people used to doing it.

After all, it's no different from what the average service rifle shooter already does with their "aim-off for wind". The only problem is that they forget about it when excited, unless you work them at it :)

This is why the Falling Plates match is such a damn good training tool. Your young shooter is hyped up, adrenalin coursing, sprints to the firing point, blazes off his ten rounds, and can't understand why all the team's targets haven't fallen over. Get the same young soldier to go down a second time, after a (metaphorical) clip round the ear and reminder about self-control and marksmanship, and see how much they improve.
 

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