London's burning

HE117

LE
Please explain,I don't understand your comment?
I was simply reacting to your assumption that a Council would actually oversee building work..!

The way this has been done for many years is that the whole thing is supposed to be covered by contract and certification. It is simply a box ticking exercise! The level of sub contracting that goes on the building trade means that in practice, nobody knows what is happening, and nobody cares as long as the paperwork looks ok at the end..! (and the money is paid!)

Council staff these days are mostly office administrators who would not know a compression joint from a rag bolt. Construction firms are also mostly administrators and finance people whose actual knowledge of building is minimal. All expertise is hired in at the least possible cost for the shortest possible time...

The speed of modern construction means that you would have to have an inspector standing with each team all the time.. not going to happen!
 
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“We strongly refute the report’s assertion that it would have been possible or safe to evacuate more than 150 people via a narrow smoke-logged stairwell with just 30 firefighters.
I think they have missed the thrust of the report - the fact that they didn’t have a contingency plan of how to evacuate - or even consider the possibility of having to do it at any stage, either beforehand or on the night, are failings themselves.

turning round in hindsight and saying ‘ah, it wouldn't have been safe’ is irrelevant - NOT doing it was even more unsafe, and not even thinking about it was negligent.
 
Something strange is going on at the moment .
The report on the Grenfell fire criticizes the Fire Service for not telling the residents to leave the building.
JRM now getting a hard time for saying it was , in his opinion and later, with hindsight, bleeding obvious you get out of a burning building if you can.

Vested interests are trying to have things both ways, and score political points.

Edit - yes I am aware the original fire drills were to stay inside your perfectly designed, maintained and unmodified flat.
 
Something strange is going on at the moment .
The report on the Grenfell fire criticizes the Fire Service for not telling the residents to leave the building.
JRM now getting a hard time for saying it was , in his opinion and later, with hindsight, bleeding obvious you get out of a burning building if you can.
Something strange does appear to be going on. The Fire Service bit of the report should have come after the investigation into what, how and why things happened.

The howls about JRM are, I suspect, more linked with point-scoring in the run-up to the General Election.
 
Something strange is going on at the moment .
The report on the Grenfell fire criticizes the Fire Service for not telling the residents to leave the building.
JRM now getting a hard time for saying it was , in his opinion and later, with hindsight, bleeding obvious you get out of a burning building if you can.

Vested interests are trying to have things both ways, and score political points.

Edit - yes I am aware the original fire drills were to stay inside your perfectly designed, maintained and unmodified flat.
The standing operation practice for tall blocks of flats in to remain in the rooms. This is because a properly maintained flat will offer 2 hours fire resistance on the structure with a 1 hour fire resistance on the front doors, therefore 2 hours for resistance in total. A further 30 minutes resistance on the lobby doors. This would give enough time to deal with a flat fire without troubling the occupants.

The fire in the flat of origin was out, the firefighters were making up their kit as the incident in the flat was dealt with.

It was the oncoming crews who could see the exterior fire.

I remember seeing the news on the morning and saying out loud "WTF is going on there". With that incident, there was no successful solution, it was lost when the cladding was fitted.

All the hindsight criticism and petty minded nit picking will never change that.

If is the biggest word in the english language.
 
The howls about JRM are, I suspect, more linked with point-scoring in the run-up to the General Election.
It’s astounding how supposedly serious news organisations are blatantly misquoting him- first telling us what he said then playing his interview in which he says nothing of the sort.
 
As I see it .....
The original design, and consequent Fire Drills were probably well tested and valid.
When the building was re-clad ........ the Fire Officer , who signed the design off, and will be Named as the responsible Officer, fuckedup. This name will be on a Building Maintenance document, held by the Landlord who is the local Council.
As the work is undertaken, the Council Building Surveyors, CoW's would have been overseeing the works.
( I hope they sleep well each night )

And finally, the Landlords.

A building of that size and design only 'works' if everyday the Safety Regs are meticulously applied.
No propping Fire doors open, no rubbish, furniture left outside or in stairwells. No you can't repaint with oil based paint, no you cant store petrol or make moonshine in your kitchen.

Once upon a time, each building had a Caretaker who lived in a ground floor flat in this type of situation.
There livelihood was dependant on watching for all the above factors, on a daily basis.

Where did their role go ?
 
Wasn’t the responsibility for routine fire inspections passed from the Fire Service to local councils by Blair and Brown?
 
As I see it .....
The original design, and consequent Fire Drills were probably well tested and valid.
When the building was re-clad ........ the Fire Officer , who signed the design off, and will be Named as the responsible Officer, fuckedup. This name will be on a Building Maintenance document, held by the Landlord who is the local Council.
As the work is undertaken, the Council Building Surveyors, CoW's would have been overseeing the works.
( I hope they sleep well each night )

And finally, the Landlords.

A building of that size and design only 'works' if everyday the Safety Regs are meticulously applied.
No propping Fire doors open, no rubbish, furniture left outside or in stairwells. No you can't repaint with oil based paint, no you cant store petrol or make moonshine in your kitchen.

Once upon a time, each building had a Caretaker who lived in a ground floor flat in this type of situation.
There livelihood was dependant on watching for all the above factors, on a daily basis.

Where did their role go ?
See post 9,441.
HE117 suggests that the Council would not oversee any of the building works.
My Mother once lived in sheltered housing.She had a Warden that came twice a day to see her and make sure all was well.The Council binned the Warden due to cost cutting.However the old dear stayed on as as an unpaid warden and carried on as she had before.
I suppose caretakers went due to cost cutting?
 
See post 9,441.
HE117 suggests that the Council would not oversee any of the building works.
My Mother once lived in sheltered housing.She had a Warden that came twice a day to see her and make sure all was well.The Council binned the Warden due to cost cutting.However the old dear stayed on as as an unpaid warden and carried on as she had before.
I suppose caretakers went due to cost cutting?
OK just read his Post and it is correct.
Basically, in the Blair years , layers upon layers upon layers of Legislation were rapidly brought in.

What went before, which was legislated but also required a bit of common sense, and stiff upper lip, was no longer worth shit.

And todays ' Labour' and hahaha ' Liberals' have not not learned, let alone earned the right to call themselves by those names.
 
Wasn’t the responsibility for routine fire inspections passed from the Fire Service to local councils by Blair and Brown?
Yes, we said at the time that Blair/Brown/Prescott had put a low cost on people's lives as an entry in policy cost/benefit analysis. It was not so much deregulation but self regulation without oversight.
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
Something strange does appear to be going on. The Fire Service bit of the report should have come after the investigation into what, how and why things happened.
You'd think that, wouldn't you? But, let's be clear, this investigation is a political machine, they are hardly going to go after fellow politicians for their shortcomings in the planning and consent of the defective cladding when there is a far easier to blame the LFB for not having a plan in place when they probably haven't got a clue about the layout of the block after any refurb due to the fact that they aren't in charge of Fire Inspections anymore.
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
As I see it .....
The original design, and consequent Fire Drills were probably well tested and valid.
When the building was re-clad ........ the Fire Officer , who signed the design off, and will be Named as the responsible Officer, fuckedup. This name will be on a Building Maintenance document, held by the Landlord who is the local Council.
As the work is undertaken, the Council Building Surveyors, CoW's would have been overseeing the works.
( I hope they sleep well each night )

And finally, the Landlords.

A building of that size and design only 'works' if everyday the Safety Regs are meticulously applied.
No propping Fire doors open, no rubbish, furniture left outside or in stairwells. No you can't repaint with oil based paint, no you cant store petrol or make moonshine in your kitchen.

Once upon a time, each building had a Caretaker who lived in a ground floor flat in this type of situation.
There livelihood was dependant on watching for all the above factors, on a daily basis.

Where did their role go ?
Why pay someone to live in a rent free flat when you can bin the role and get someone in paying full market value?
 
Yes, we said at the time that Blair/Brown/Prescott had put a low cost on people's lives as an entry in policy cost/benefit analysis. It was not so much deregulation but self regulation without oversight.
Sorry, I am a little bit slow, cooking and enjoying a bottle of red.

Can you rephrase that again ' a low cost on peoples lives as an entry in cost /benefit analysis .......'. ??
 
Sorry, I am a little bit slow, cooking and enjoying a bottle of red.

Can you rephrase that again ' a low cost on peoples lives as an entry in cost /benefit analysis .......'. ??
Cutting the fire service and police with the justification that "they've got insurance".
 
Yes, we said at the time that Blair/Brown/Prescott had put a low cost on people's lives as an entry in policy cost/benefit analysis. It was not so much deregulation but self regulation without oversight.
yep more or less anyone with a scout fire badge could do fire risk assasments at the end of the day the building was more than likely not fit even before the cladding went on
 
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