London's burning

And now Cheshire's burning. I'm surprised at the lack of outrage over this one - a newish-looking retirement complex in Crewe, 150 residents, completely destroyed. Surely something wrong there with building standards and fire protection?

Image result for crewe fire
No sprinklers and in the modern, risk averse fire service, if there is no one in there they will not enter the premises to extinguish the fire.
 
Would that have been the occasion when, despite the College having all the latest firefighting kit and, given the nature of the establishment, being full of senior and potentially senior fire officers, union rules meant any on-site incidents had to be tackled by the retained service in nearby Moreton-in- Marsh and not by those at the College.
Of course, most of the retained force were actually serving at the College.
So, while their colleagues watched helplessly, staff who were on the retained force responded to their pagers, legged it the couple of miles into town, jumped aboard the appliances there and drove back to the College.
By the time they got back, the damage had been done!
That's the one. The same college that claimed that because it was crown property the could not be sued for injuries caused during training. Then the big bad union found out it was not crown property, oh how the training regime changed.
 
That's the one. The same college that claimed that because it was crown property the could not be sued for injuries caused during training. Then the big bad union found out it was not crown property, oh how the training regime changed.
My old man told me the tale. He was on the staff there as a civvie lecturer, after he left the Army (RAEC), from 1985 to 2001.
 
My old man told me the tale. He was on the staff there as a civvie lecturer, after he left the Army (RAEC), from 1985 to 2001.
I remember on my BAI course doing safety on the top floor of one of the fire houses. Lying on the floor by a wall watching the water boiling a couple of metres away from the fire on the floor below. The instruction staff did not feel they were doing their job properly if they did not have injuries.
 
I remember on my BAI course doing safety on the top floor of one of the fire houses. Lying on the floor by a wall watching the water boiling a couple of metres away from the fire on the floor below. The instruction staff did not feel they were doing their job properly if they did not have injuries.
Do you know if there was any truth in the dit that for the Forensic course, the Home Office arranged for the country’s top arsonist to be sprung from nick, on license, and told him to set fires in the fire houses using his well honed skills and expertise, in order to train students on the course.
Apparently, he couldn’t believe his luck - and he was paid CS rates for his ‘hobby’. Pig in excrement, or what!
 
Do you know if there was any truth in the dit that for the Forensic course, the Home Office arranged for the country’s top arsonist to be sprung from nick, on license, and told him to set fires in the fire houses using his well honed skills and expertise, in order to train students on the course.
Apparently, he couldn’t believe his luck - and he was paid CS rates for his ‘hobby’. Pig in excrement, or what!
I have not heard that one, I do know that Them regularly used the facilities, this happening between courses with the training facilities out of bounds for all but the immediate training staff. The Royals too.
 
No sprinklers and in the modern, risk averse fire service, if there is no one in there they will not enter the premises to extinguish the fire.
I understand they did well there, lots of rescues and sensible incident command.
However:
 
I understand they did well there, lots of rescues and sensible incident command.
However:
Same question as the Crewe incident, how can the whole building burn like that? I thought fire doors and fire stops within the structure were supposed to stop a fire spreading.
Image result for walsall hotel fire
 
Same question as the Crewe incident, how can the whole building burn like that? I thought fire doors and fire stops within the structure were supposed to stop a fire spreading.
Image result for walsall hotel fire
Strange, it's normally listed buildings that have suspicious 'accidental' fires, I wonder if their is a story behind this one?
 
Same question as the Crewe incident, how can the whole building burn like that? I thought fire doors and fire stops within the structure were supposed to stop a fire spreading.
Image result for walsall hotel fire
I understand this started as a one room fire.

All I can suggest is that the fire precautions are not installed properly.

It looks to me as if spread was through the roof.
 
I remember my last boss being bollocked for turning up at a fire as first attendance and fighting it rather than setting up a control point to direct oncoming appliances. How he was meant to direct appliances without finding out what the developing incident was went over the grown ups heads.

C&C, whilst undoubtedly important is now the sole incident target at the expense of the fire loss. "They have insurance" said spitful prescott when he started the cost cutting.
 
I remember my last boss being bollocked for turning up at a fire as first attendance and fighting it rather than setting up a control point to direct oncoming appliances. How he was meant to direct appliances without finding out what the developing incident was went over the grown ups heads.

C&C, whilst undoubtedly important is now the sole incident target at the expense of the fire loss. "They have insurance" said spitful prescott when he started the cost cutting.
We had a board in the cab (designed by some good looking bloke) rather like a stage II ECB for appliances and officers.
Each wagon had a 5” square tally with crew chinagraphed into its spaces, C/S and specialities marked. It was slotted into the side like a BA board. It took 5 pumps, three specials and four Ruperts.

On the front were simple graphic reminders for DRA, messages, tasking priority and tactical state. (Tick boxes)

The driver ran that and used it as an aide memoir until more appliances arrived. It could hang on the pump bay side if need be. (Next informative due at—:—:—.

With an attendance of five plus machines you could have a pair running that as CP until the Command Unit arrived. Each appliance also carried a sector folder with Surcoat ID, DRA notes and sector briefs.
Simple but effective.

If you were short crewed you dealt with priorities first.
 
No sprinklers and in the modern, risk averse fire service, if there is no one in there they will not enter the premises to extinguish the fire.
Some of us students of the older school who cut their teeth on internal fire fighting would still consider committing if it’s viable. In my opinion the service is in danger of becoming risk averse again if it’s not careful ( see what i did there;) ) I believe that’s exacerbated by increasingly inexperienced OIC’s and over reliance on new technology, take the new generation of water towers such as the stinger/scorpion, great pieces of kit but they aren’t a magic bullet, particularly if the booms won’t reach the spot you need to put water in or you have internal features like over boarding, you might be able to break through the external roof with the spike but if the fire is travelling in an internal void, you’re not going to touch it from outside. I’ve also seen aerial monitors sat outside jobs, literally washing the roof slates for want of a better plan and often in spite of the operators advice to the contrary.
 
Some of us students of the older school who cut their teeth on internal fire fighting would still consider committing if it’s viable. In my opinion the service is in danger of becoming risk averse again if it’s not careful ( see what i did there;) ) I believe that’s exacerbated by increasingly inexperienced OIC’s and over reliance on new technology, take the new generation of water towers such as the stinger/scorpion, great pieces of kit but they aren’t a magic bullet, particularly if the booms won’t reach the spot you need to put water in or you have internal features like over boarding, you might be able to break through the external roof with the spike but if the fire is travelling in an internal void, you’re not going to touch it from outside. I’ve also seen aerial monitors sat outside jobs, literally washing the roof slates for want of a better plan and often in spite of the operators advice to the contrary.
Up until my retirement we’d been using this:


"We may risk our lives a lot, in a highly calculated manner, to protect saveable lives.


We may risk our lives a little, in a highly calculated manner, to protect saveable property.


We will not risk our lives at all for lives or property that are already lost."

I do wonder what effect stunted crewing and lack of FS knowledge has on these youngsters DRAs.
 
Up until my retirement we’d been using this:


"We may risk our lives a lot, in a highly calculated manner, to protect saveable lives.


We may risk our lives a little, in a highly calculated manner, to protect saveable property.


We will not risk our lives at all for lives or property that are already lost."

I do wonder what effect stunted crewing and lack of FS knowledge has on these youngsters DRAs.
That’s still the mantra but again, in my opinion, I think some OIC’s are unsure when it comes to the middle one in terms of what constitutes reasonable risk.
 
Up until my retirement we’d been using this:


"We may risk our lives a lot, in a highly calculated manner, to protect saveable lives.


We may risk our lives a little, in a highly calculated manner, to protect saveable property.


We will not risk our lives at all for lives or property that are already lost."

I do wonder what effect stunted crewing and lack of FS knowledge has on these youngsters DRAs.
The cynical old sod in me notes that there seems to be one line missing from that. Not that I offer any blame or incrimination for it.
 
That’s still the mantra but again, in my opinion, I think some OIC’s are unsure when it comes to the middle one in terms of what constitutes reasonable risk.
I think incident command may be suffering because people are not familiar with Building Construction and fire protection.

How can you DRA a burning structure when you’re not familiar with what it’s built from?
 
I think incident command may be suffering because people are not familiar with Building Construction and fire protection.

How can you DRA a burning structure when you’re not familiar with what it’s built from?
This is what I don't understand. Building regs and bye-laws developed over +100 years, often in response to tragedies, but now in the 21st Century hotels and residential homes can burn out in such a short time.
 
This is what I don't understand. Building regs and bye-laws developed over +100 years, often in response to tragedies, but now in the 21st Century hotels and residential homes can burn out in such a short time.
In the eighties we would do a routine certification inspection and give them all the wedges we found with a “Stern word” at the end.

Since Regulatory Reform that just doesn’t happen...

I could burn down any place if I wedged five fire doors.
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
In the eighties we would do a routine certification inspection and give them all the wedges we found with a “Stern word” at the end.

Since Regulatory Reform that just doesn’t happen...

I could burn down any place if I wedged five fire doors.
A tenner says you can't! ;)
 
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