London - Two stabbed to death already. What next for the rest of 2019?

MrBane

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
Reviews Editor
As London began to end 2018 with a fairly decent death count through stabbings and shootings etc, the first (I think?) of 2019 has already been registered:

Two dead and four hurt in London attacks

Situation aside, it's clear that London has gone a bit bonkers of late. With the police struggling due to various cultural issues and how they engage with the public and a suggestion that they were going to go down the stop search route so lambasted (yet so successful) in Scotland, what do we think needs to be done to get a grip on it?

- Increase police figures?

If Englandshire forces are anything like Police Scotland, it doesn't matter if you increase police figures, there are hundreds in office jobs that don't need to exist. Simply kick them out back to the streets.

- Develop new operational policing models?
There are only two models really - the reactive and the proactive models. Reactive is the one that responds to 999 calls, and proactive is the one where cops get into their areas, get to know people and know the problem children and deal with them by presence as a deterrence. However many police forces are going down the route of fire fighting, where all they do is respond to calls. With demotivated officers, why would you go out to seek problems when you often get enough flung at you?

- Realise that the problem isn't a policing one, and is an educational, social and family one that is often ignored and routinely failed to address before it's too late?

Councils shutting down youth engagement facilities / community centres, etc so they simply have no-where to go and nothing to do. Sports training costing money that is often outwith the reach of low income families. No diversionary measures in place to support those kids who just need to be engaged.

Education no longer interested in educating in how to be a person, and rather trying to achieve some obscure curriculum to tick boxes?

Parents who don't know how to parent? Can't cook a meal, can't keep a house clean. Remember, these are skills we learn from our parents. If it's not carried on down the generations, the skill eventually goes and it is a skill to raise a family - the most challenging one of all.

London is a mirror onto society as a whole, because it has all of society's demographics within it's boundaries. Smaller cities have the same issues, towns have the same issues, neighbourhoods have the same issues, streets have the same issues.

How do we respond to this?

For example, I'm currently trying to resolve ongoing violence and youth disorder in a deprived area. Rather than routinely arresting everyone (because they're juveniles and so nothing happens to them), I'm spending most of my time trying to pull together everyone from landlords to youth groups to funding sources to housing associations to try and implement diversionary measures in the area. Should that really be the job of the police? Yet it's the only way there will ever be a long term solution. So if not the police, which body should take this up? Social Work Services? A new government arm? We can't rely on volunteer led community groups and charities - too many have had their funding pulled from them, leaving a lot of disillusioned kids back on the streets.. These groups live year to year and can be very unstable.

I firmly believe that we need some local authority agency which is responsible for co-ordination and organisation of youth facilities. From supporting the start-up of one, to negotiating with landlords for preferential rates, to assisting with funding. There is currently nothing in place which does this where I am, and I don't really think there is anything like it in the UK or if there is, then the chances are they're volunteer led and funded through grants again.

The main concern is that this is a sliding scale of violence and disorder, and in some areas, it's tipping towards a distinct downwards trend that will be difficult if not impossible to recover from.

Thoughts?
 
Education no longer interested in educating in how to be a person, and rather trying to achieve some obscure curriculum to tick boxes?
I'm not going to get up on my education hobby horse but do you not think this is like me criticising the police for focussing on internet posts rather than dealing with burglaries?

Parents who don't know how to parent? Can't cook a meal, can't keep a house clean. Remember, these are skills we learn from our parents. If it's not carried on down the generations, the skill eventually goes and it is a skill to raise a family - the most challenging one of all.
Definitely an issue - how to solve it is going to be interesting though.
 
As London began to end 2018 with a fairly decent death count through stabbings and shootings etc, the first (I think?) of 2019 has already been registered:

Two dead and four hurt in London attacks

Situation aside, it's clear that London has gone a bit bonkers of late. With the police struggling due to various cultural issues and how they engage with the public and a suggestion that they were going to go down the stop search route so lambasted (yet so successful) in Scotland, what do we think needs to be done to get a grip on it?

- Increase police figures?

If Englandshire forces are anything like Police Scotland, it doesn't matter if you increase police figures, there are hundreds in office jobs that don't need to exist. Simply kick them out back to the streets.

- Develop new operational policing models?
There are only two models really - the reactive and the proactive models. Reactive is the one that responds to 999 calls, and proactive is the one where cops get into their areas, get to know people and know the problem children and deal with them by presence as a deterrence. However many police forces are going down the route of fire fighting, where all they do is respond to calls. With demotivated officers, why would you go out to seek problems when you often get enough flung at you?

- Realise that the problem isn't a policing one, and is an educational, social and family one that is often ignored and routinely failed to address before it's too late?

Councils shutting down youth engagement facilities / community centres, etc so they simply have no-where to go and nothing to do. Sports training costing money that is often outwith the reach of low income families. No diversionary measures in place to support those kids who just need to be engaged.

Education no longer interested in educating in how to be a person, and rather trying to achieve some obscure curriculum to tick boxes?

Parents who don't know how to parent? Can't cook a meal, can't keep a house clean. Remember, these are skills we learn from our parents. If it's not carried on down the generations, the skill eventually goes and it is a skill to raise a family - the most challenging one of all.

London is a mirror onto society as a whole, because it has all of society's demographics within it's boundaries. Smaller cities have the same issues, towns have the same issues, neighbourhoods have the same issues, streets have the same issues.

How do we respond to this?

For example, I'm currently trying to resolve ongoing violence and youth disorder in a deprived area. Rather than routinely arresting everyone (because they're juveniles and so nothing happens to them), I'm spending most of my time trying to pull together everyone from landlords to youth groups to funding sources to housing associations to try and implement diversionary measures in the area. Should that really be the job of the police? Yet it's the only way there will ever be a long term solution. So if not the police, which body should take this up? Social Work Services? A new government arm? We can't rely on volunteer led community groups and charities - too many have had their funding pulled from them, leaving a lot of disillusioned kids back on the streets.. These groups live year to year and can be very unstable.

I firmly believe that we need some local authority agency which is responsible for co-ordination and organisation of youth facilities. From supporting the start-up of one, to negotiating with landlords for preferential rates, to assisting with funding. There is currently nothing in place which does this where I am, and I don't really think there is anything like it in the UK or if there is, then the chances are they're volunteer led and funded through grants again.

The main concern is that this is a sliding scale of violence and disorder, and in some areas, it's tipping towards a distinct downwards trend that will be difficult if not impossible to recover from.

Thoughts?

That you're wrong on a lot of your points, particulary about London and the last commnet : Clue. Rudi Giuliani

Got things to do right now but will go through your subjective generalisations one by one another time .
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
There are only two models really - the reactive and the proactive models. Reactive is the one that responds to 999 calls, and proactive is the one where cops get into their areas, get to know people and know the problem children and deal with them by presence as a deterrence.
And therein lies the problem, if that happened in some parts of London, there'd be howls of racism and stereotyping due to the population make-up of the area from certain Left Wing organisations as well as the Shadow HS and Mayor of London. It wouldn't matter that you're trying to make the area a better place to live, it would be seen as targetting a potentially target rich environment.
 

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
I'm amazed that so many people on social media are blaming Khan for it.

In my simple mind, police cuts plus growing population equals rapid increase in crime.


On a loosely related note, last night on Lambeth Bridge there was the stench of weed almost everywhere, whilst watching the fireworks. We'd somehow managed to have a couple from San Francisco tag along with us for the duration (they'd asked to follow us since they didn't know the best spot to see beyond the ticketed areas).

Afterwards, the police had blocked our escape route back and once again the American couple asked if we minded them following us out as we went around. The bloke then asked hypothetically, "wonder why the police have blocked the 'rowt' off?"

I sarcastically replied, "they're probably looking for the guy smoking weed, mate".

All I'll say is "gullible" is too kind a word.
 
When you are policing the third world with first world methods you will get at best second rate results.
 

Londo

LE
As London began to end 2018 with a fairly decent death count through stabbings and shootings etc, the first (I think?) of 2019 has already been registered:

Two dead and four hurt in London attacks

Situation aside, it's clear that London has gone a bit bonkers of late. With the police struggling due to various cultural issues and how they engage with the public and a suggestion that they were going to go down the stop search route so lambasted (yet so successful) in Scotland, what do we think needs to be done to get a grip on it?

- Increase police figures?

If Englandshire forces are anything like Police Scotland, it doesn't matter if you increase police figures, there are hundreds in office jobs that don't need to exist. Simply kick them out back to the streets.

- Develop new operational policing models?
There are only two models really - the reactive and the proactive models. Reactive is the one that responds to 999 calls, and proactive is the one where cops get into their areas, get to know people and know the problem children and deal with them by presence as a deterrence. However many police forces are going down the route of fire fighting, where all they do is respond to calls. With demotivated officers, why would you go out to seek problems when you often get enough flung at you?

- Realise that the problem isn't a policing one, and is an educational, social and family one that is often ignored and routinely failed to address before it's too late?

Councils shutting down youth engagement facilities / community centres, etc so they simply have no-where to go and nothing to do. Sports training costing money that is often outwith the reach of low income families. No diversionary measures in place to support those kids who just need to be engaged.

Education no longer interested in educating in how to be a person, and rather trying to achieve some obscure curriculum to tick boxes?

Parents who don't know how to parent? Can't cook a meal, can't keep a house clean. Remember, these are skills we learn from our parents. If it's not carried on down the generations, the skill eventually goes and it is a skill to raise a family - the most challenging one of all.

London is a mirror onto society as a whole, because it has all of society's demographics within it's boundaries. Smaller cities have the same issues, towns have the same issues, neighbourhoods have the same issues, streets have the same issues.

How do we respond to this?

For example, I'm currently trying to resolve ongoing violence and youth disorder in a deprived area. Rather than routinely arresting everyone (because they're juveniles and so nothing happens to them), I'm spending most of my time trying to pull together everyone from landlords to youth groups to funding sources to housing associations to try and implement diversionary measures in the area. Should that really be the job of the police? Yet it's the only way there will ever be a long term solution. So if not the police, which body should take this up? Social Work Services? A new government arm? We can't rely on volunteer led community groups and charities - too many have had their funding pulled from them, leaving a lot of disillusioned kids back on the streets.. These groups live year to year and can be very unstable.

I firmly believe that we need some local authority agency which is responsible for co-ordination and organisation of youth facilities. From supporting the start-up of one, to negotiating with landlords for preferential rates, to assisting with funding. There is currently nothing in place which does this where I am, and I don't really think there is anything like it in the UK or if there is, then the chances are they're volunteer led and funded through grants again.

The main concern is that this is a sliding scale of violence and disorder, and in some areas, it's tipping towards a distinct downwards trend that will be difficult if not impossible to recover from.

Thoughts?
So true , have 10,000 likes
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
I'm amazed that so many people on social media are blaming Khan for it.

In my simple mind, police cuts plus growing population equals rapid increase in crime.


On a loosely related note, last night on Lambeth Bridge there was the stench of weed almost everywhere, whilst watching the fireworks. We'd somehow managed to have a couple from San Francisco tag along with us for the duration (they'd asked to follow us since they didn't know the best spot to see beyond the ticketed areas).

Afterwards, the police had blocked our escape route back and once again the American couple asked if we minded them following us out as we went around. The bloke then asked hypothetically, "wonder why the police have blocked the 'rowt' off?"

I sarcastically replied, "they're probably looking for the guy smoking weed, mate".

All I'll say is "gullible" is too kind a word.
Chance would be a fine thing, it's become the norm for certain factions within London society to wander around openly smoking Ganja and getting away with it.
 

Poppy

LE
Chance would be a fine thing, it's become the norm for certain factions within London society to wander around openly smoking Ganja and getting away with it.
yes I followed 2 (white) men in builders type clothing over Blackfriars Bridge last year they were sharing a spliff
 

Londo

LE
And therein lies the problem, if that happened in some parts of London, there'd be howls of racism and stereotyping due to the population make-up of the area from certain Left Wing organisations as well as the Shadow HS and Mayor of London. It wouldn't matter that you're trying to make the area a better place to live, it would be seen as targetting a potentially target rich environment.
True . We need a cull
 
As London began to end 2018 with a fairly decent death count through stabbings and shootings etc, the first (I think?) of 2019 has already been registered:

Two dead and four hurt in London attacks

Situation aside, it's clear that London has gone a bit bonkers of late.

, what do we think needs to be done to get a grip on it?
Napalm

Its not exactly without precedence after all 1666 worked wonders for removing vermin and pestilence
 
Last edited:
yes I followed 2 (white) men in builders type clothing over Blackfriars Bridge last year they were sharing a spliff

They should have been arrested for cultural appropriation.
 

MrBane

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
Reviews Editor
I'm not going to get up on my education hobby horse but do you not think this is like me criticising the police for focussing on internet posts rather than dealing with burglaries?
Go for it. It's an internet forum for debate!

Also, the unfortunate problem we have is that crime is a crime is a crime. So if someone wants to report a post on a forum / Facebook / Twitter for racism / homophobia / sectarianism / insert phobia here, it needs to be treated as such. Technically it's no different from someone saying it to your face.
Facebook takes up a huge amount of time for policing. "I read a post that offended me." style of complaints. Often it's just shite, but sometimes there lurks behind it a bigger issue that a complaint about a post helps to identify.

However that's also the society we're in - people will complain about anything and some people, as we know, are more prone to complaining than others, perhaps actively look for opportunities to complain. However, a police force can't ignore a complaint - that way lies peril and in the past it's led to a victim suffering far worse.

That you're wrong on a lot of your points, particulary about London and the last commnet : Clue. Rudi Giuliani

Got things to do right now but will go through your subjective generalisations one by one another time .
Of course it's generalisations - I've flung it out to get some debate rolling about.

Looking at Rudi, a quick search brings back:

How much credit does Giuliani deserve for fighting crime?

Rudy Giuliani: divisive New York past has many in fear of Trump cabinet post

Stop-and-frisk in New York City - Wikipedia

A mayor seen to be causing divisions between race in New York through the policing tactics and his defence of them, etc, etc. It's also worth noting that any police force can see a major drop in crime if they suddenly change how they record crime - and that's exactly what many police forces do. It's called in Scotland, 'subsumed' - when a crime is subsumed under another crime which takes precedence. Thus an assault can be subsumed under threatening and abusive behaviour. The end result is the statistics record the threatening and abusive behaviour, but not the assault (purely from a statistical point of view).

It's a common trick employed around the world where accounting of crimes is conducted. It's not uncommon to libel four or five charges against someone on the police system, and later see it's reduced to one or maybe two with the rest subsumed. Vandalism is a common one for it.

So you may be able to recover from crime, but it's the damage you do on the way - either institutionally or culturally / in society.
 

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
Chance would be a fine thing, it's become the norm for certain factions within London society to wander around openly smoking Ganja and getting away with it.
Although I don't like the smell, I prefer it to them stinky Arab fags which we had to wade through plumes and plumes of on the way back through London's "Middle East", up Park Lane, past that wee Esso garage and Grovesnor place where that bouncer got stabbed to death at a few hours later...

Then past the Lebanese cafe with all the hooka pipe smokers sat outside on the corner before reaching the safe haven of the VSC.

I remember my woman waking me up early hours of the morning muttering something about police sirens.

I turned around and muttered something about someone probably getting stabbed and it being part and parcel of living in a big city before realising I had a bit of an early morning boner and more important thoughts started to enter my head.

Recollecting my thoughts and attitude towards it as I type, suggests a tipping point of hopelessness has been reached.
 
Go for it. It's an internet forum for debate!

Also, the unfortunate problem we have is that crime is a crime is a crime. So if someone wants to report a post on a forum / Facebook / Twitter for racism / homophobia / sectarianism / insert phobia here, it needs to be treated as such. Technically it's no different from someone saying it to your face.
Facebook takes up a huge amount of time for policing. "I read a post that offended me." style of complaints. Often it's just shite, but sometimes there lurks behind it a bigger issue that a complaint about a post helps to identify.

I think one of the difference is that some Facebook posts arent directly said to anyone but some ********* still take offence. You wouldn't go to a Roy Chubby Brown show and whine about his sexist jokes because no one forced you to go to his show, in a similar manner no one forces peoples to read other peoples posts yet some crybabies still get offended and boohoo to the old bill.
 
As London began to end 2018 with a fairly decent death count through stabbings and shootings etc, the first (I think?) of 2019 has already been registered:

Two dead and four hurt in London attacks

Situation aside, it's clear that London has gone a bit bonkers of late. With the police struggling due to various cultural issues and how they engage with the public and a suggestion that they were going to go down the stop search route so lambasted (yet so successful) in Scotland, what do we think needs to be done to get a grip on it?

- Increase police figures?

If Englandshire forces are anything like Police Scotland, it doesn't matter if you increase police figures, there are hundreds in office jobs that don't need to exist. Simply kick them out back to the streets.

- Develop new operational policing models?
There are only two models really - the reactive and the proactive models. Reactive is the one that responds to 999 calls, and proactive is the one where cops get into their areas, get to know people and know the problem children and deal with them by presence as a deterrence. However many police forces are going down the route of fire fighting, where all they do is respond to calls. With demotivated officers, why would you go out to seek problems when you often get enough flung at you?

- Realise that the problem isn't a policing one, and is an educational, social and family one that is often ignored and routinely failed to address before it's too late?

Councils shutting down youth engagement facilities / community centres, etc so they simply have no-where to go and nothing to do. Sports training costing money that is often outwith the reach of low income families. No diversionary measures in place to support those kids who just need to be engaged.

Education no longer interested in educating in how to be a person, and rather trying to achieve some obscure curriculum to tick boxes?

Parents who don't know how to parent? Can't cook a meal, can't keep a house clean. Remember, these are skills we learn from our parents. If it's not carried on down the generations, the skill eventually goes and it is a skill to raise a family - the most challenging one of all.

London is a mirror onto society as a whole, because it has all of society's demographics within it's boundaries. Smaller cities have the same issues, towns have the same issues, neighbourhoods have the same issues, streets have the same issues.

How do we respond to this?

For example, I'm currently trying to resolve ongoing violence and youth disorder in a deprived area. Rather than routinely arresting everyone (because they're juveniles and so nothing happens to them), I'm spending most of my time trying to pull together everyone from landlords to youth groups to funding sources to housing associations to try and implement diversionary measures in the area. Should that really be the job of the police? Yet it's the only way there will ever be a long term solution. So if not the police, which body should take this up? Social Work Services? A new government arm? We can't rely on volunteer led community groups and charities - too many have had their funding pulled from them, leaving a lot of disillusioned kids back on the streets.. These groups live year to year and can be very unstable.

I firmly believe that we need some local authority agency which is responsible for co-ordination and organisation of youth facilities. From supporting the start-up of one, to negotiating with landlords for preferential rates, to assisting with funding. There is currently nothing in place which does this where I am, and I don't really think there is anything like it in the UK or if there is, then the chances are they're volunteer led and funded through grants again.

The main concern is that this is a sliding scale of violence and disorder, and in some areas, it's tipping towards a distinct downwards trend that will be difficult if not impossible to recover from.

Thoughts?
Some good points raised. However,the one about closing community centres. I just don't buy it.The type of scrote who is willing to stick a knife in someone's chest,because he didn't like the look he got from across the road or wants his trainers,is not likely to attend the local youth club.
 
I have said it before and I will say it again.
Back in the day, if a neighbours son mugged you, or a friend or relative you would go around with your mates ,or on your own and sort them out.
I don't understand why a quick smack in the chops is not understood anymore.
 

Londo

LE
Some good points raised. However,the one about closing community centres. I just don't buy it.The type of scrote who is willing to stick a knife in someone's chest,because he didn't like the look he got from across the road or wants his trainers,is not likely to attend the local youth club.
Or only go to to deal drugs
 

Joshua Slocum

LE
Book Reviewer
Young Males fathering children with young women, then moving on to father a child with another young woman ad infinitum
ergo young men growing up without a father figure, mother working all the hours
young men look for replacement father figure and joins gangs or follow drug dealers

plus a lack of respect for all of the emergency services
Today I spoke with a nursing sister who works in a large town

she gets black youths coming in kicking off and sucking through their teeth often with knife wounds, and its all because I is black, she gets white youths coming in mimicking black youths sucking through their teeth and moaning about being picked on cos I is young innit
to which she replies I dont give a F*** I am her to treat you, if you want to act like a moron then sod off
Drunks coming in and kicking off moaning about their rights
drug addicts coming in and fighting and wanting priority treatment

shes retiring soon had enough
oddly mine and my parents generation always had the greatest respect for Nursing and medical staff
my Family Doc was at Arnhem !
it would have been unthinkable to have been rude to him or argued with his judgement
 

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