light gun gurus??

#1
ok then bear with me...
can the light gun be de-elevated?? i.e barrel pointing down and fired??
if so and this is the difficult bit, whats the angle or trajectory required??
and how close could you fire a round in a de-elevated position and hit the ground??

sorry if its all gobbledygook!!
any help would be appreciated.
 
#3
it can be used in the A/T role and can fire under the horizon, but at what angle I wouldn't know. As for hitting the ground in front just set it up in front of a berm and you will soon find out what happens if you get the elevation wrong!
 
#5
LondonCalling said:
it can be used in the A/T role and can fire under the horizon, but at what angle I wouldn't know. As for hitting the ground in front just set it up in front of a berm and you will soon find out what happens if you get the elevation wrong!
The reason im asking is that an ex gunner friend is saying that he was on a gun line and the barrel was de-elevated 30 degrees. The gun was fired and the round hit the floor thirty feet in front of the gun and then bounced 5 km away??
feasible??

IM hoping the answers NO as i have been ripping into him for two days solid!!!
 
#6
cityloyal said:
LondonCalling said:
it can be used in the A/T role and can fire under the horizon, but at what angle I wouldn't know. As for hitting the ground in front just set it up in front of a berm and you will soon find out what happens if you get the elevation wrong!
The reason im asking is that an ex gunner friend is saying that he was on a gun line and the barrel was de-elevated 30 degrees. The gun was fired and the round hit the floor thirty feet in front of the gun and then bounced 5 km away??
feasible??

IM hoping the answers NO as i have been ripping into him for two days solid!!!
Errrrrr....are you sure that you:

a. Heard him correctly?
b. Wasn't high on something grown in Colombia/similar?
c. Aren't in fact posting this to attract several huge bites?

:D

And it's 'depressed', not 'de-elevated'.

Purely as a matter of technical interest, it is feasible that the round could exit the barrel at around 300m/s, hit a surface that wasn't too hard as to cause the round to break up, nor too soft as too let in burrow in, then somehow retain sufficient stability to travel a further 5000m etc etc etc...
 
#7
30 degrees seems a bit excessive unless there was a damn big hole in the ground in front of the gun (barrel about 5m long? trunion about 1m off ground?, 30 degrees down gives the muzzle brake 1.5m underground). It probably can go down that far, but haven't got access to the gun books anymore to check.

If nothing else the gun would not be happy afterwards, probably wreck all the recoil system (depending which charge they used), the gun does have max and min limitations on elevation depending on the charge size. The shell wouldn't have been happy either, I'd be surprised if it kept any ballistic spin and the fuze was probably destroyed.

So basically yes it may be possible, but the gun would have been wrecked, the shell flying like a brick and probably wouldn't detonate at the far end leaving a messy job for the ATO/EOD bod when he turned up.

S_R

p.s. never tried it so can't guarantee the answer is right and I'm a munitions man more than ordnance.
 
#8
Proximo said:
cityloyal said:
LondonCalling said:
it can be used in the A/T role and can fire under the horizon, but at what angle I wouldn't know. As for hitting the ground in front just set it up in front of a berm and you will soon find out what happens if you get the elevation wrong!
The reason im asking is that an ex gunner friend is saying that he was on a gun line and the barrel was de-elevated 30 degrees. The gun was fired and the round hit the floor thirty feet in front of the gun and then bounced 5 km away??
feasible??

IM hoping the answers NO as i have been ripping into him for two days solid!!!
Errrrrr....are you sure that you:

a. Heard him correctly?
b. Wasn't high on something grown in Colombia/similar?
c. Aren't in fact posting this to attract several huge bites?

:D

And it's 'depressed', not 'de-elevated'.

Purely as a matter of technical interest, it is feasible that the round could exit the barrel at around 300m/s, hit a surface that wasn't too hard as to cause the round to break up, nor too soft as too let in burrow in, then somehow retain sufficient stability to travel a further 5000m etc etc etc...
Definitely heard him correct :)
the barrel was DEPRESSED!!. 60 Mils and the round hit 30 feet in front of the gun position and dissapeared 5 km away.
now... and heres the good part, this happened ten times before it was realised!!!
surely some gunner range conducting officer would have been having a heart attack on the gun line if this had happened just once.. but ten times??
is this story not part of artillery folklore?? or is my mate just completely full of shit???
i can get the unit if anyones interested??
 
#9
cityloyal said:
Proximo said:
cityloyal said:
LondonCalling said:
it can be used in the A/T role and can fire under the horizon, but at what angle I wouldn't know. As for hitting the ground in front just set it up in front of a berm and you will soon find out what happens if you get the elevation wrong!
The reason im asking is that an ex gunner friend is saying that he was on a gun line and the barrel was de-elevated 30 degrees. The gun was fired and the round hit the floor thirty feet in front of the gun and then bounced 5 km away??
feasible??

IM hoping the answers NO as i have been ripping into him for two days solid!!!
Errrrrr....are you sure that you:

a. Heard him correctly?
b. Wasn't high on something grown in Colombia/similar?
c. Aren't in fact posting this to attract several huge bites?

:D

And it's 'depressed', not 'de-elevated'.

Purely as a matter of technical interest, it is feasible that the round could exit the barrel at around 300m/s, hit a surface that wasn't too hard as to cause the round to break up, nor too soft as too let in burrow in, then somehow retain sufficient stability to travel a further 5000m etc etc etc...
Definitely heard him correct :)
the barrel was DEPRESSED!!. 60 Mils and the round hit 30 feet in front of the gun position and dissapeared 5 km away.
now... and heres the good part, this happened ten times before it was realised!!!
surely some gunner range conducting officer would have been having a heart attack on the gun line if this had happened just once.. but ten times??
is this story not part of artillery folklore?? or is my mate just completely full of s***???
i can get the unit if anyones interested??
Yes, I want the unit and dates please.
 
#10
Sympathetic_Reaction said:
30 degrees seems a bit excessive unless there was a damn big hole in the ground in front of the gun (barrel about 5m long? trunion about 1m off ground?, 30 degrees down gives the muzzle brake 1.5m underground). It probably can go down that far, but haven't got access to the gun books anymore to check.

If nothing else the gun would not be happy afterwards, probably wreck all the recoil system (depending which charge they used), the gun does have max and min limitations on elevation depending on the charge size. The shell wouldn't have been happy either, I'd be surprised if it kept any ballistic spin and the fuze was probably destroyed.

So basically yes it may be possible, but the gun would have been wrecked, the shell flying like a brick and probably wouldn't detonate at the far end leaving a messy job for the ATO/EOD bod when he turned up.

S_R

p.s. never tried it so can't guarantee the answer is right and I'm a munitions man more than ordnance.
Fuck that, they can deal with their own blinds.
 
#11
dingerr said:
Sympathetic_Reaction said:
30 degrees seems a bit excessive unless there was a damn big hole in the ground in front of the gun (barrel about 5m long? trunion about 1m off ground?, 30 degrees down gives the muzzle brake 1.5m underground). It probably can go down that far, but haven't got access to the gun books anymore to check.

If nothing else the gun would not be happy afterwards, probably wreck all the recoil system (depending which charge they used), the gun does have max and min limitations on elevation depending on the charge size. The shell wouldn't have been happy either, I'd be surprised if it kept any ballistic spin and the fuze was probably destroyed.

So basically yes it may be possible, but the gun would have been wrecked, the shell flying like a brick and probably wouldn't detonate at the far end leaving a messy job for the ATO/EOD bod when he turned up.

S_R

p.s. never tried it so can't guarantee the answer is right and I'm a munitions man more than ordnance.
Fuck that, they can deal with their own blinds.
:wink:
 
#12
I liked blinds because it meant Lt Cuddles and WO NotasnervouswhenIljoinedaswhenIleft got to blow them up!
 
#13
I'm not disputing that technically speaking, the Gun Posn blows its own blinds, but frankly I've not seen many GLSCs and BSMs that I'd trust to do it. And that's across the board...
 
#14
L118 elevation/depression = +70/-5.5 degrees
 
#15
cityloyal said:
Proximo said:
cityloyal said:
LondonCalling said:
it can be used in the A/T role and can fire under the horizon, but at what angle I wouldn't know. As for hitting the ground in front just set it up in front of a berm and you will soon find out what happens if you get the elevation wrong!
The reason im asking is that an ex gunner friend is saying that he was on a gun line and the barrel was de-elevated 30 degrees. The gun was fired and the round hit the floor thirty feet in front of the gun and then bounced 5 km away??
feasible??

IM hoping the answers NO as i have been ripping into him for two days solid!!!


Errrrrr....are you sure that you:

a. Heard him correctly?
b. Wasn't high on something grown in Colombia/similar?
c. Aren't in fact posting this to attract several huge bites?

:D

And it's 'depressed', not 'de-elevated'.

Purely as a matter of technical interest, it is feasible that the round could exit the barrel at around 300m/s, hit a surface that wasn't too hard as to cause the round to break up, nor too soft as too let in burrow in, then somehow retain sufficient stability to travel a further 5000m etc etc etc...
Definitely heard him correct :)
the barrel was DEPRESSED!!. 60 Mils and the round hit 30 feet in front of the gun position and dissapeared 5 km away.
now... and heres the good part, this happened ten times before it was realised!!!
surely some gunner range conducting officer would have been having a heart attack on the gun line if this had happened just once.. but ten times??
is this story not part of artillery folklore?? or is my mate just completely full of s***???
i can get the unit if anyones interested??
My bold. 60 Mils is equal to about 3.38 Degrees

I'm now confused as in your second post you stated 30 Degrees depression. This would be an angle of depression equalling 533.4 Mils 8O

Edited for crap maths. It's the vodka I tell you
 
#16
Takes me back, an operational theatre several decades ago with 105mm Pack How, we were having a bit of direct fire fun firing diagonally across a grass airstrip at a 44 gal drum or something about 300 m away, the gun pit was actually a bit lower than surface of the strip and the first shell made a neat groove a few metres long in the runway surface about 50 m in front of the gun and richocheted OK detonating beyond the target (but only a few hundred metres).

Richochet fire was used in the past with HE fuzed delay (or graze if you're that old) to give airburst. To get the shell to go 5 km you'd need the right angle of bounce and have sufficient velocity after grazing the ground. To get the bounce angle you'd need the right 'impact' angle. The question is how much velocity is lost in the bounce. It invites a few questions and assumptions, including the max angle of impact to bounce and not detonate, I've got a vague idea this might be about 12 degrees (call it 215 mils), but this seems a bit large for a modern fuze. Given an RT you should be able to check whether a range of 5km is theoretically possible, but the key is the post graze velocity. I'll ignore the matter of finding a suitable gun position.

Incidentally we always destroyed our own blinds there, the training pams were totally clear and its very simple and safe providing you don't try to be 'clever'. We also used explosives to loosen the ground for digging gun pits, etc. Plant? RE? ATO? good joke.
 
#18
As you may guess from my handle, I started life as a gun bunny (but got better)

In the days of the 25 pdr, it was an accepted drill to fire Smoke BE on depression with the fuze set at 0 (i think - it was a 221B but can't remember the minimum setting). Anyway - the idea was that you laid down the three smoke pots just to the front of the guns giving local smoke for a fast bug out...

I saw this tried at Otterburn in the late 60s and yes it works (on charge 1), and yes the gun jumps (which is why you were told to put those long hatpin things through the platform)...

Leaping guns are a rarity now , but look at WW2 footage of 17pdr and similar Anti tank guns and you will see similar performances. The buffer is designed to extend more at low elevations, including some degrees of depression but there will be a maximum depression listed in the gun book.

Some of the old coastal defence batteries had a capability for depressed fire (famously in Gibralter) but these were from locked down carriages designed for the job.
 
#19
Hang on, you said 30 degress then 60 mils? 1 degree is 17.77777777777 mils which means it's either just over three degrees or 534 mils? Which is it?
A gun can be fired downwards if it were on a slope but obviously it would need to be fixed on it's platform. As already stated that may wreck the saddle, barrel and or recoil system. I'm not sure it it can be depressed under zero mils elevation if on a usual level or above platform?

Funnily enough doesn't richochet kick in around 533 mils? Was that was what said? I would think that that it what your informant was on about?

Sorry if any of this has been said already, i missed out the middle bits!
 
#20
Proximo said:
I'm not disputing that technically speaking, the Gun Posn blows its own blinds, but frankly I've not seen many GLSCs and BSMs that I'd trust to do it. And that's across the board...
I hope you are including me in that because frankly I was dangerous when equipped with blind, explosives and det cord/safety fuse!
 
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