Liam Fox - I choose the former

#1
I think most of us have been critical of Liam Fox, his heart might be in the right place but his dribbling on defence issues of late have led me to think the Tory approach to defence will be pretty much the same as Labour, that of managing decline.

In the papers today he surprised me by rejecting some of the recent green paper

We are at a tipping point in Britain. We need to decide if we want to stay in the first division or slide into the second division.

I choose the former.
read the rest here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/feb/08/defence-liamfox

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...or-become-second-division-warns-Liam-Fox.html

is this a bit of clear blue water opening up between the parties or do you think his fine words won't be matched with pound notes?
 

Fronty

Old-Salt
Book Reviewer
#2
He might think that himself, but all the virtue and good intentions in the world might not be salvageable when the defence budget will only allow for a few scouts armed with catapults.

I wish him luck if the Tories get in... He'll need it.
 
#3
Fronty said:
He might think that himself, but all the virtue and good intentions in the world might not be salvageable when the defence budget will only allow for a few scouts armed with catapults.
With H & S around? Don't be silly.
 
#4
As has been pointed out ad nauseum on other threads, Defence spennding is a drop in the ocean compared to the money pouring down the tubes on welfare, NHS, edjucashun and relieving poverty in the EU/third world (otherwise known as our competitors).

It may just be rhetoric on the part of the Conservatives at the moment but it is a start. All budgets are going to get slashed by whoever gains power. That is a fact and it is only that sure knowledge that is keeping UK shares, confidence and currency afloat at the moment. At least if one party pledges to support the AF it gives the future Secretary of State a fighting chance. Anyone believe Bob Hainsworth will be able to secure a good deal if, God forbid, Labour and the Libs get back into power?
 
#6
I think it is just a case of fine words to be honest. Whatever they plan to do they will have to fund. Ever since the end of National Service the military has become smaller and smaller and all parties have played a part in this.
From the Telegraph- Dr Fox said that while the military could not be ''immune from the economic realities'', the review would be an opportunity for ''long overdue radical thinking and reform''...... that is his get-out clause- he has really said nothing of any significance
 
#7
Again, the tories, like every government in recent memory will talk about standing up for the armed forces and then shaft them and reduce their size anyway.

I would trust them about as much as an alleyway abortionist.
 
#8
Baz - you have been warned before about using alleyway "services"!

Use the alleyway abortionist or the alleyway chainsaw maniac - that's the choice!
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#9
"Dr Fox said that while the military could not be ''immune from the economic realities''"

as if Defence was some sort of optional hobby (like overseas aid).
 
#10
meridian said:
is this a bit of clear blue water opening up between the parties or do you think his fine words won't be matched with pound notes?
I choose the latter.

Caesar has tried to be all things to all men in every other field, why should this be any different? The Conservatives are not going to turn the country into a life-support system for the Armed Forces, they've got their own supporters to reward from the public treasury.
 
#11
The cost and consequences of both Iraq and Afghanistan will scar and incapacitate Military strategies and tactics for the foreseeable future.It is seems unlikely that the U.K. will ever be able to act independently again.The current scrapping and deferment of major and much needed updates and equipment is creating significant gaps in our ability to project military force or even defend ourselves without the cooperation of either the U.S. or the E.U.,and there would seem to be more cuts to come whoever gets into power next time
 
#12
Bazzinho1977 said:
Again, the tories, like every government in recent memory will talk about standing up for the armed forces and then shaft them and reduce their size anyway.

I would trust them about as much as an alleyway abortionist.
I take it you have also stuck Labour and the other lot in the alleyway with the abortionist? For the last time there is no money Gordon and his mates have spent it all so we are all stuffed, and that goes for HMF.
 
#13
As posted earlier, it does not matter what your military aspirations are if you cannot finance it you have no choice but to relegate yourself from the Premiership.
I have no idea how you 'class' a first or second division military but for too long we have punched above our weight. So the question is what has 'dining at the top-table' brought the country militarily, financially or politically over the last 10 or 20 years?
 
#14
pimpernel said:
Bazzinho1977 said:
Again, the tories, like every government in recent memory will talk about standing up for the armed forces and then shaft them and reduce their size anyway.

I would trust them about as much as an alleyway abortionist.
I take it you have also stuck Labour and the other lot in the alleyway with the abortionist? For the last time there is no money Gordon and his mates have spent it all so we are all stuffed, and that goes for HMF.
pimp - I barely trust my own father - so I regard all politicians of whatever political hue as little more than vampires at the moment. Hence my use of the term "government" above.
 
#15
Bazzinho1977 said:
pimpernel said:
Bazzinho1977 said:
Again, the tories, like every government in recent memory will talk about standing up for the armed forces and then shaft them and reduce their size anyway.

I would trust them about as much as an alleyway abortionist.
I take it you have also stuck Labour and the other lot in the alleyway with the abortionist? For the last time there is no money Gordon and his mates have spent it all so we are all stuffed, and that goes for HMF.
pimp - I barely trust my own father - so I regard all politicians of whatever political hue as little more than vampires at the moment. Hence my use of the term "government" above.
Cheers baz, rather tend to agree.
 
#16
meridian said:
I think most of us have been critical of Liam Fox, his heart might be in the right place but his dribbling on defence issues of late have led me to think the Tory approach to defence will be pretty much the same as Labour, that of managing decline.
I think you are being overly generous towards the Conservatives and quite inaccurate regarding New Labour.

Did you mean MISmanaging decline?

meridian said:
is this a bit of clear blue water opening up between the parties or do you think his fine words won't be matched with pound notes?
Finance: No difference between the two. The economy is fooked and defence will be an easy target for cuts.

Policy: I doubt the Conservatives would have done little different to New Labour since 2001. The only difference being the narrative on why we're going into Iraq and so on. As to the future, I don't think either will have a true grip on our own destiny and policy will be determined in other capitals.
 
#17
pimpernel said:
Bazzinho1977 said:
pimpernel said:
Bazzinho1977 said:
Again, the tories, like every government in recent memory will talk about standing up for the armed forces and then shaft them and reduce their size anyway.

I would trust them about as much as an alleyway abortionist.
I take it you have also stuck Labour and the other lot in the alleyway with the abortionist? For the last time there is no money Gordon and his mates have spent it all so we are all stuffed, and that goes for HMF.
pimp - I barely trust my own father - so I regard all politicians of whatever political hue as little more than vampires at the moment. Hence my use of the term "government" above.
Cheers baz, rather tend to agree.
Thats a bit harsh - you don't even know my father....
 
#18
kangorrilapig said:
The cost and consequences of both Iraq and Afghanistan will scar and incapacitate Military strategies and tactics for the foreseeable future.It is seems unlikely that the U.K. will ever be able to act independently again.
In a political or hardware sense?

I don't agree with your statement at all.
 
#19
Fronty said:
He might think that himself, but all the virtue and good intentions in the world might not be salvageable when the defence budget will only allow for a few scouts armed with catapults.

I wish him luck if the Tories get in... He'll need it.
I think Liam fox's appointment will be an initial litmus test of the new Govt's ideas on defense. If cameron makes him Secretary of State for Defense then it will show that the Tories are serious about it and want a man with a lot of experience in the shadow role to sort out the issues. If, on the other hand, they give Fox another appointment and give the MOD to a different MP then it will provide a clear indication that all three services should await incoming.

Edited to add: His speech still indicates that they're going to cut the budget though
 

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