Leopard 2 Germany - Indonesia controversy.

#7
Only because we don't order any
The factory is still there as is all the necessary equipment and skill.
You mean the Newcastle plant that's closing at the end of the year as there's no work ? The one that hasn't designed a MBT since CR2 in the 80s ? The one where the skills necessary have all slipped away to other jobs, retired or drive cabs ? That one ? Don't kid yourself, there's zero chance anyone is going to pay for some unique low volume prototype when you can get Leo 2, Abrams, T-90 and some cheap yet cheerful Chinese knock-offs for a lot less.

Trust me, I've been in the defence industry from graduating until last year and if you haven't built a product for a couple of decades you're not going to succeed without paying a huge premium to build up the industrial base. As evidence I offer Nimrod, which was never going to offer more than flawed 1950s aerodynamics and got canned. Also Astute, although here as it is vital to the deterrent truly eye watering sums of money were paid to bring in foreign talent to make it work. If it wasn't deterrent related we'd be out of that business as well.
 
#8
You mean the Newcastle plant that's closing at the end of the year as there's no work ? The one that hasn't designed a MBT since CR2 in the 80s ? The one where the skills necessary have all slipped away to other jobs, retired or drive cabs ? That one ? Don't kid yourself, there's zero chance anyone is going to pay for some unique low volume prototype when you can get Leo 2, Abrams, T-90 and some cheap yet cheerful Chinese knock-offs for a lot less.

Trust me, I've been in the defence industry from graduating until last year and if you haven't built a product for a couple of decades you're not going to succeed without paying a huge premium to build up the industrial base. As evidence I offer Nimrod, which was never going to offer more than flawed 1950s aerodynamics and got canned. Also Astute, although here as it is vital to the deterrent truly eye watering sums of money were paid to bring in foreign talent to make it work. If it wasn't deterrent related we'd be out of that business as well.
And it is exactly this kind of insight that should be read by the other thread -


http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affairs-news-analysis/198483-[serious]-parliament-wants-arrse.html
 
#9
Won't be long they'll be trundling all over Europe and then here.
I think it would be very sensible of MOD to purchase Leopard, retain skills, send more money to Germany, greater interoperability. Great blue sky thinking Jarrod...!


I am impressed.
 
#10
Having played with a Leo 2 a number of years back, I was reminded yet again why members of my family, me included, have been Mercedes-Benz fans since 1951. Every single part you touched just dripped, nay ooooooooooooozed, sheer quality. I was very impressed to see a demo of two Leo 2s and their ARRV - Bueffel - drive over a 20m gap [laid in less than three minutes by a Biber] and exchange engines with each other, and then all drive back across the Biber bridge in just a tad over 28 minutes...

Only using a Leatherman.

tac

PS - I lied about the Leatherman for narrative impact. Sorry.
 
#12
I would think that Rolls Royce aero engines, most of the Formula 1 engineering works, Triumph motorcycles and a whole host of specialist engineering companies may disagree.
Undoubtedly but still pretty much niche markets compared to what we used to do on a much larger industrial scale. We were an industrial power house providing heavy goods in all manner of markets and usefully I thought, providing jobs for the masses.

Now we would struggle enormously to do anything more than what you mentioned above and those masses just keep on drawing dole or working in supermarkets.
 
#13
Undoubtedly but still pretty much niche markets compared to what we used to do on a much larger industrial scale. We were an industrial power house providing heavy goods in all manner of markets and usefully I thought, providing jobs for the masses.

Now we would struggle enormously to do anything more than what you mentioned above and those masses just keep on drawing dole or working in supermarkets.
I think that is cause we cannot get hold of the resources cheap enough (due to loss of empire) and we cannot pay skilled turners and fabricators a small pay packet nowadays so the end product would be very expensive.
Niche engineering can be expensive though, especially when it involves sexy carbon fibre and titanium :)
 
#14
I would think that Rolls Royce aero engines, most of the Formula 1 engineering works, Triumph motorcycles and a whole host of specialist engineering companies may disagree.
In 1945 87% of the world's shipping was constructed in British yards.

In 1951 90% of the world's motor cars were built in and exported from UK.

Post-war european military was modelled on and equipped from UK.

Whilst I concur that RR (Aero) and F1 are still cutting edge, you would be "exceedingly brave" to deny that there is not an order of magnitude of difference there.

Thanks to the UK pre-occupation with a Welfare state and apologist politicians (standfast one certain lady PM), we're in a state from which recovery (fiscal, morality, business) will be extraordinarily challenging. Put another way: if we're not actually, already f#cked - we shall be shortly.
 
#16
I doubt there is any way that we could have stayed competetive with the Far East cost wise no matter how history had been different.

There are some area where we should have been able to retain the lead (air industry). But the UK is a group of countries that were punching well above their weight for many years. Once other countries started to catch up, the inevitable happened.
 
#17
I doubt there is any way that we could have stayed competetive with the Far East cost wise no matter how history had been different.

There are some area where we should have been able to retain the lead (air industry). But the UK is a group of countries that were punching well above their weight for many years. Once other countries started to catch up, the inevitable happened.
1. When you hold the trumps, you dont let the competition catch up - akin to kicking them on the ground: it makes sense.

2. If you believe that its inevitable (your words), then you've already offered them a hand to help them up off the ground.

Look at how the USA continually "raises the bar" or "shifts the goalposts" in order to ensure that #2 does not happen. UK was on top, but lost its will to remain there. No excuses, only mitigation.
 
#18
Undoubtedly but still pretty much niche markets compared to what we used to do on a much larger industrial scale.
We also mass produce a lot of cars (more than Germany, apparently), pharmaceuticals and high end technology products.

Also, to be fair, if you see aero engines and engineering as niche then what are MBTs? There can't be more than a couple of thousand left in the whole of Europe if you don't include Russia.
 
#19
Just shows how smart Germany is , selling off old but good kit to a country IMHO who has no need for heavy armour.
Well done DE , wish UK had the idea first. Just think about the spares contract. 25 years or what.
 

Grumblegrunt

LE
Book Reviewer
#20
Having played with a Leo 2 a number of years back, I was reminded yet again why members of my family, me included, have been Mercedes-Benz fans since 1951. Every single part you touched just dripped, nay ooooooooooooozed, sheer quality. I was very impressed to see a demo of two Leo 2s and their ARRV - Bueffel - drive over a 20m gap [laid in less than three minutes by a Biber] and exchange engines with each other, and then all drive back across the Biber bridge in just a tad over 28 minutes...

Only using a Leatherman.

tac

PS - I lied about the Leatherman for narrative impact. Sorry.
good job you admitted that, no self respecting german would dare use such a shoddy product as a leatherman when a swisstool is available.
 
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