Legal Advice - Pay

Discussion in 'Army Pay, Claims & JPA' started by IS Ski Geek, Feb 18, 2008.

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  1. IS Ski Geek

    IS Ski Geek War Hero Moderator

    In Dec 04 I completed a Supervisory course. At the end of the course I was promoted to SSgt and moved from Sgt Higher Level 5 to SSgt Higher level 1. This was correct. The following year on the course some personnel were promoted to SSgt before the end of the course. They were moved from Sgt Higher Level 5 to SSgt Lower level 5. 2 Months later when they finished the course they were moved to Higher level 5. In essence they had about 5 years worth of pay rises.

    When I complained about this I was told that it should not have happened and it would not happen again. We are now 3 and a half years down the line and the same thing is still happening. On a course due to finish soon Glasgow have promoted 3 of the soldiers before the end of the course. They have gone to SSgt lower level 5 and will move across to SSgt higher level 5 at the end of the course. 2 of the soldiers concerned were my troop Cpls when I was a SSgt and were promoted to Sgt when I was a WO2.

    I now find myself in the position that as of April the 2 SSgts will be only 1 pay level behind me. I have had to get my incremental pay rises every year however they have just jumped 5 years of pay levels.

    I put in and AGAI 70 about this in September and my chain of command agreed that this was unfair and should be resolved. Although I have been in with my Adjt numerous times about the AGAI 70 I have still not received any official reply to the AGAI 70.

    My question is what should I do next. I have been in numerous times and nothing appears to be happening.

    If I need to proceed down the legal route does anyone know a solicitor that understands the Army pay system.

    Any advice is greatly appreciated.
  2. Check your pm's.

  3. You can take action if you have been disadvantaged or wronged in some way and you would be legitimately entitled to some form of remedy for the wrong you have suffered.

    From what I understand - you have not suffered any wrong - therefore you have no redress.

    If, as I understand it, you want to make a representation in regard to other soldiers receiving some form of increased pay to which they are not entitled (known as unjust enrichment), then you can certainly bring the matter to the attention of the CofC, but unless it affects you (which it does not - other than feeling aggrieved), then there is not a lot you can do.

    If the CofC are content to do nothing then you cannot insist that they do - it does not affect you whether they do or they do not.
  4. IS Ski Geek

    IS Ski Geek War Hero Moderator

    Am I not being disadvantaged in that I have done exactly the same course, have served longer in appointment and yet I am being differently than junior members of lower rank.

    One of the soldiers was on the same selection course as myself. I was selected for the course, she was not. I then completed the course and was then promoted. I went back to the unit as her boss and was a rank above her. The following year she was promoted and moved to lower pay band. She then had another attempt at the selection board and was succesfull. When she has finished the course she will be moved straight across to higher level 7 as a SSgt. Yet I am a WO and only on level 6. I therefore feel I have been disadvantaged by being selected for the course, completing the course and then gaining succesfull promotion to WO to then find I am paid less than the SSgt who was promoted after me.

    maybee I am looking at this in the wrong way but I am pretty sure I have been disadvanteged.
  5. Personally... and clearly you have decided to take this further anyway - but I think you are on a road to nowhere.

    Unless you have suffered some disadvantage -i.e. had a reasonable expectation of receiving something and then failed to receive it, where in the circumstances it would have been fair and just for you to receive it, then you do not have a claim.

    I understand your gripe - but is this not similar to all the soldiers who did not receive 5 and 8 year money because they happened to join one day before the next man who did receive that money.

    You cannot seek redress for someone else's enrichment solely on the grounds that you think it is unfair - unless of course you have not received that to which you believe you are entitled whereas the third party has.
  6. IS Ski Geek

    IS Ski Geek War Hero Moderator

    Ok I see what you mean I suppose I will just have to grin and bear it.

    Many thanks for your reply
  7. IS Ski Geek

    IS Ski Geek War Hero Moderator

    How would this be affected if the person who had become finacially better off than me although my junior was a female.

    i only ask after reading the Armed forces Equality and Diversity Scheme 2006-2009 where it clearery states the following:

    Develop, publish and regularly review an Equal Pay Policy, including measures to promote equal pay, ensure fair promotion and development opportunities and tackle occupational segregation.

    any relevant comments welcomed

  8. Geekster, as you know i'm aware of your situation having been on the same course and promoted on the same day. I can see the point of view sammy the cat is putting forward - you (and i) were promoted according to the rules therefore in the eyes of our lords and masters we have not been disadvantaged.

    What is clearly at fault is that a pay system that is supposed to be able to benefit higher levels of experience through the levels system can work to someones advantage (not their fault) to the tune of many thousands of pounds a year. Somebody who finishes a course as a SSgt with zero in roster experience doesnt deserve to earn more than someone who is a WO2 and has 4 years experience in roster. I cant see an arguement for that being fair.

    But it appears to be how the pay system works and as history has shown its not the only ill thought out element of Pay 2k.

  9. Didn't the REME have a very similar problem a while back vis a vis there supervisory trades? Maybe they've resolved there situation and lessons could be learned.

    Then again probably not...
  10. It'll be the same situation where completion of the course grants you promotion. If you attend the course as a SSgt or are promoted to SSgt before completion you are at a greater financial advantage. To be honest, i cant fault anyone who plays the game and gains from it.
  11. The policy of equal pay and work of an equivalent value is too complicated for me to remember off the top of my head. I can look into it if you need a decent answer, but without going any further I would put forward the argument that your comparison is flawed from the start.

    If someone is junior to you, then you cannot make the comparison of equality in regards to your position - if you are senior to them then you cannot be equal.

    I know what you are saying, and this is where the second argument comes in - i.e. work of an equivalent value. If Soldier A carries out work that is of an equivalent value to Soldier B then they should both be remunerated in a similar way (this premise was established years ago - I really cannot remember the case law, I think it was Defrenne v Sabena - you may also want to have a look at Article 141 of the EC Treaty).

    The bottom line is that you are still making a comparison based on someone else's pay. The argument needs to come from your side.

    I am siding with Boney M on this one - he is on the money when he blames the Pay 2000 structure.

    The bottom line is (in my view), is that many pay related matters in today's army exist as an incentive to stay in the army, doled out as a retention measure. Clearly I do not know where you are on the promotion scales - but I guess as a WO2 you only have a handful of years left to serve. To that end the army are not concerned with your retention as it is a done deal that you will stay - and if you choose to leave then a. You won't be missed, b. There will be someone to take your place and c. The MOD save a fortune in immediate pension payouts.

    The system is fair - but some people get treated more fairly than others.

    If you still feel aggrieved then PM with all the details - ranks, pay, dates, comparisons etc and I will look into it in more detail when I get back from exercise next week. But don't hold your breath.

    Alternatively, make a service complaint - check out JSP 831.