Leave entitlement for shift workers

#1
Good Evening Ladies and Gents,

After possibly 3 years of sitting on the sidelines and never actually signing up to the website, I have decided to see what all the fuss is about and join up. I do so humbly, with my hat in my hand and with a question aimed at the Admin Gurus amongst you.

I am a shift worker in a Joint Service Police Unit. Up until now my leave has been pretty normal (Mon-Fri deducted from leave entitlement, weekends left alone etc). This new unit, has a leave policy that baffles me. I have tried to comprehend the JSP that outlines the leave entitlements, but to no avail.

Basically after I take 2 weeks leave, I FP on a rest day in my shift cycle. I have been told by the unit CoC that I have to extend my leave days to encompass these rest days (thus losing a further 3 days off my flick) or come back to work early in order to "earn" thse rest days. Working these rest days are also not an option, as that would have me in work 12 days straight. Something I am willing, but not allowed to do.

If I was employed in a nine to five post, and I my FP fell on a weekend, I would not be made to work the weekend...

My question is this, (hopefully the above has painted a picture) Do I have to "earn" these days off by working, and do the unit have the right to make me submit extra leave to compensate for the "unearned" rest days?

I appreciate there are bigger things going on in the world right now, Afghan, terrorism, Jade Goody's impending doom etc, but a little advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

My future posts will be more contributing...

Wolv
 
#2
Your Unit HR should be adjusting any leave to take your shift pattern into account - I work with the TA and we have a similar issue, every time a shift worker books leave they send a hard copy in and the relevant adjustment is made to Authorised Absence (AA) it would make everyone's life a damn site easier if we went back to 42 calendar days leave as opposed to 30 working days. The ability to tell JPA which days are bank holidays would also make life a bit easier as well, next year will be a nightmare - everyone is getting an extra 8 days added to their leave for bank holidays but you must book a day's absence for each bank holiday you take off - Barking or what. We already find we have to make adjustments to every single leave record we look at when someone arrives in the unit as they have been credited extra leave for bank holidays/stand downs but not booked the absence on JPA.

Sorry for the rant!!

PW
 
#3
wolverine9314 said:
Good Evening Ladies and Gents,

After possibly 3 years of sitting on the sidelines and never actually signing up to the website, I have decided to see what all the fuss is about and join up. I do so humbly, with my hat in my hand and with a question aimed at the Admin Gurus amongst you.

I am a shift worker in a Joint Service Police Unit. Up until now my leave has been pretty normal (Mon-Fri deducted from leave entitlement, weekends left alone etc). This new unit, has a leave policy that baffles me. I have tried to comprehend the JSP that outlines the leave entitlements, but to no avail.

Basically after I take 2 weeks leave, I FP on a rest day in my shift cycle. I have been told by the unit CoC that I have to extend my leave days to encompass these rest days (thus losing a further 3 days off my flick) or come back to work early in order to "earn" thse rest days. Working these rest days are also not an option, as that would have me in work 12 days straight. Something I am willing, but not allowed to do.

If I was employed in a nine to five post, and I my FP fell on a weekend, I would not be made to work the weekend...

My question is this, (hopefully the above has painted a picture) Do I have to "earn" these days off by working, and do the unit have the right to make me submit extra leave to compensate for the "unearned" rest days?

I appreciate there are bigger things going on in the world right now, Afghan, terrorism, Jade Goody's impending doom etc, but a little advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

My future posts will be more contributing...

Wolv
Whinger
 
#4
I would say speak to some MPGS as this is exactly what they do. I think I see what you're getting at, in that if you want 2 weeks leave you are told that if you have rest days within this period, you use them as annual leave and that if you are due your rest period upon return to work you have not earnt them?

As I understand it, your 30 days annual leave are outside of your rest days, assuming you are on a constant cycle. I know that MPGS guys who do 4 days, 4 nights 4 days off, would only put in a leave pass for the working days that excompass the 4 days and 4 nights and the rest days remain their rest days.
 
#5
paywog said:
Your Unit HR should be adjusting any leave to take your shift pattern into account - I work with the TA and we have a similar issue, every time a shift worker books leave they send a hard copy in and the relevant adjustment is made to Authorised Absence (AA) it would make everyone's life a damn site easier if we went back to 42 calendar days leave as opposed to 30 working days. The ability to tell JPA which days are bank holidays would also make life a bit easier as well, next year will be a nightmare - everyone is getting an extra 8 days added to their leave for bank holidays but you must book a day's absence for each bank holiday you take off - Barking or what. We already find we have to make adjustments to every single leave record we look at when someone arrives in the unit as they have been credited extra leave for bank holidays/stand downs but not booked the absence on JPA.

Sorry for the rant!!

PW
Not that barking, this way everyone knows that they WILL get the bank holiday off. I went to a unit whre they were all over this, and if you worked a Bank Holiday you got a day in lieu. Another unit it was just seen as tough sh1t if you worked on a day off.

With the above system, EVERYONE books a day off, if they can´t they know they will get the day off at some point. Same if the CO stands the unit down for a day.

Re Shift work. A mate of mine was MPGS. They worked a system of only counting the shift days. so if your shift pattern was two on two off, you would lose two days of leave (working days) but have 6 days off. It seemed to work for them. They also had some sort of day where they were on standby, which worked funny but can´t remember the details.

It sounds like the poster has a case of a non-shift worker/never worked shifts imposing rules on the shift workers. Days off are merely weekends, it may be that they get more "days off" than the office hour workers, but that is because shifts tend to be longer or at pain in the arrse times.
 
#6
Thanks JT,

The system we have is 3 Days, 3 Training 3 Nights, 3 Rest, which perpetuate as far as the eyes can see. I don't believe it's a case of "whingeing", as the institutionalised among us would believe, Its about not keeping your head down when you think someones pis*ing on your chips...
 
#7
As I understand it then, you have to work for the next 3 rest days after taking leave.....

ie take 9 days of leave, and your 3 rest days = 12, not 15 days off.

Not a problem.

Next time an office hours worker takes 5 days off, ask why they weren´t in work for the second weekend... after all they haven´t earnt the days :twisted:
 
#8
Not quite CF, I have to submit an EXTRA 3 days leave on top of my original request, to encompass those rest days. I am not allowed to come back from leave and work those rest days, as that would mean working 12 days in a row for that set...something which apparently will damage my Welfare... FFS! :roll:
 
#9
wolverine9314 said:
Not quite CF, I have to submit an EXTRA 3 days leave on top of my original request, to encompass those rest days. I am not allowed to come back from leave and work those rest days, as that would mean working 12 days in a row for that set...something which apparently will damage my Welfare... FFS! :roll:
In that case insist that the office hours pax put in leave (and thus lose entitlement) for their second weekend?
 
#11
wolverine9314 said:
Not quite CF, I have to submit an EXTRA 3 days leave on top of my original request, to encompass those rest days. I am not allowed to come back from leave and work those rest days, as that would mean working 12 days in a row for that set...something which apparently will damage my Welfare... FFS! :roll:
I work a 4on, 4off rota, we only put in for annual leave on the days that we would have been working. This works out that to have 16 days leave, we only put in a leave pass for the 8 days/shifts that we would have worked as the 4 days rest between shifts would have been that, REST days. If those three day are actually rest days, then :-
a) you shouldn't have to put in a pass for them
b)the fact that these 3 rest days are after 9days leave still shouldn't detract from the fact that you are not due back until after these days, working or not.
 
#12
chocolate_frog said:
paywog said:
Your Unit HR should be adjusting any leave to take your shift pattern into account - I work with the TA and we have a similar issue, every time a shift worker books leave they send a hard copy in and the relevant adjustment is made to Authorised Absence (AA) it would make everyone's life a damn site easier if we went back to 42 calendar days leave as opposed to 30 working days. The ability to tell JPA which days are bank holidays would also make life a bit easier as well, next year will be a nightmare - everyone is getting an extra 8 days added to their leave for bank holidays but you must book a day's absence for each bank holiday you take off - Barking or what. We already find we have to make adjustments to every single leave record we look at when someone arrives in the unit as they have been credited extra leave for bank holidays/stand downs but not booked the absence on JPA.

Sorry for the rant!!

PW
Not that barking, this way everyone knows that they WILL get the bank holiday off. I went to a unit whre they were all over this, and if you worked a Bank Holiday you got a day in lieu. Another unit it was just seen as tough sh1t if you worked on a day off.

With the above system, EVERYONE books a day off, if they can´t they know they will get the day off at some point. Same if the CO stands the unit down for a day.

Re Shift work. A mate of mine was MPGS. They worked a system of only counting the shift days. so if your shift pattern was two on two off, you would lose two days of leave (working days) but have 6 days off. It seemed to work for them. They also had some sort of day where they were on standby, which worked funny but can´t remember the details.

It sounds like the poster has a case of a non-shift worker/never worked shifts imposing rules on the shift workers. Days off are merely weekends, it may be that they get more "days off" than the office hour workers, but that is because shifts tend to be longer or at pain in the arrse times.
Sorry but I assure you it is ridiculous to give everyone the 8 extra days then expect them to book a day's absence on each bank holiday - to ensure everyone books the day's absence will be a nightmare!

PW
 
#13
Why is it so ridiculous to expect the leave authorisers to do their job, after all it is their guys and girls that they are looking after - duty of care / managment I would think.

Of course this is only after they realise that JPA is not just an SPS Tool, I am sure that won't take long 8O
 
#14
I just feel it is adding a totally unnecessary layer of bureaucracy - until JPA if there was a bank holiday you either took the day off or arranged with your line manager to have a day in lieu, if you were on leave (dinosaur) over a bank holiday you were not docked a day from your entitlement. It cannot be an impossibility to tell JPA which days are bank holidays!! People will just not bother to book the time off and then end up with more leave on their records than they are entitled to. Before you say this will not happen, it already does like I said before, every individual we have had assigned to us since JPA came into being (I am not exaggerating) has been credited days for bank holidays/ CO grants but not requested the time off on JPA thereby ending up with extra entitlements - the resulting adjustments are not taken too well!!

PW
 
#15
paywog said:
I just feel it is adding a totally unnecessary layer of bureaucracy - until JPA if there was a bank holiday you either took the day off or arranged with your line manager to have a day in lieu, if you were on leave (dinosaur) over a bank holiday you were not docked a day from your entitlement. It cannot be an impossibility to tell JPA which days are bank holidays!! People will just not bother to book the time off and then end up with more leave on their records than they are entitled to. Before you say this will not happen, it already does like I said before, every individual we have had assigned to us since JPA came into being (I am not exaggerating) has been credited days for bank holidays/ CO grants but not requested the time off on JPA thereby ending up with extra entitlements - the resulting adjustments are not taken too well!!

PW
It isn't "adding" a layer though. The leave system is already in place, the various line managers, receive the leave pass and authorise.

It isn't too long ago that you would have to put in a leave pass for a bank holiday if you were leaving camp or theatre. This is the same.

If there are those who are going on leave with out the leave app....... then are they not AWOL?

For which they should be charged, and their line managers slapped for not a. enquiring where they were that day, or not ensuring they had applied for leave.
 
#16
So line managers will need to be in then to ensure everyone who hasn't booked leave for the bank holiday is working!

Like I said before I am yet to come across an absence record of an individual coming in to my unit where they have booked absence for bank holidays/grants - this is totally unnecessary and it does add a layer of red tape which is very difficult to manage properly. It also serves to lower the troops, already lower than a snakes belly, opinion of JPA!

PW
 
#17
paywog said:
So line managers will need to be in then to ensure everyone who hasn't booked leave for the bank holiday is working!

Like I said before I am yet to come across an absence record of an individual coming in to my unit where they have booked absence for bank holidays/grants - this is totally unnecessary and it does add a layer of red tape which is very difficult to manage properly. It also serves to lower the troops, already lower than a snakes belly, opinion of JPA!

PW

I agree with c-frog on this. It is a piece of p1ss to ensure everyone has put in a leave pass (if a troop Sgt can't get that right he should be sacked) It has to be done for every block stand down, if particular units have poor admin then surely someone up the admin food chain will notice that every member of said unit has not submitted enough leave for the year and ask questions.

The system ensures that those stiffed for duties or whatever over a bank holiday automatically receive the leave owed to them rather than adding the extra burden of arranging it with their line manager. I suspect large civilian organisations operate a similar system whereby the day owing does not have to be scrounged from the line manager.

I do agree with you Paywog that it is a nause having to tell JPA that Christmas is a day off for everyone every year, but it is a much fairer system for Pte Bloggs who is d1cked for duty and frankly the administrators exist to support him not the other way round. Any little thing that helps to ensure that troops aren't needlessly d1cked about is a good thing in my book.
 
#18
If it is such a piece of p*ss why does no one do it now? - It was much easier when we could input all the dates of bank holidays into the system then anyone applying for leave/absence over a bank holiday doesn't get docked a day's leave for that day. The system isn't designed to tell JPA that Christmas is a day off - it relies on "Pte Bloggs" to book the day off - that's what is so stupid about it - it messes the troops and their line managers about unnecessarily!!

PW
 
#19
The problem being of course, that in BFG units, some only take German holidays not UK. Thus JPA "knowing" all the bank holidays might not work... also units in other places. If JPA knows the day is a stand down, but the soldier doesn't book it off (ie because of duty) does the JPA credit the soldier with a day off in lieu?

If not then surely crediting all with the public holiday days at the start of the year is the way forward. No haggling for days off, or "Staff do you remember I stagged on during May Day".

Re working on a std down.

As a general rule, we knew in advance who wouldn't be off that day and arranged work for them. ie the Senior person present would supervise, a set number of tasks laid down, and a report to the ROS or similar on the day, to ensure they turned up.
 
#20
The whole issue is that from 1 Apr this year everyone will be given 38 days leave which includes 8 days bank holidays - this relies on individuals booking leave for the bank holiday - the system does not know which days the bank holidays are on!

PW
 

Similar threads

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top