LE Officers - Overworked and Overlooked

#1
It has been my experience, not directly I hasten to add, that LE officers seem to get the rough end of the stick.

I know of a few who have recently 'given up the ghost' and opted for pastures new. They were all in my experience, grade A individuals, who still had a lot to offer.

Having had a number of in depth conversations, with several who fit into this category, they highlighted seperately, however were all in agreement that they got sick to death of being handed the lions share of the responsibility, when the real 'Officer Corps' got away with doing the bare minimum.

It's about time that dogma changed. Anyone else like to add to the debate.
 
#2
Ok this is an attempt at controvery on your part, but they should have known better.
 
#3
Hi Western,

I am not trying to be contraversial, but as I said having had a number of recent conversations, with individuals who 'sacked it', I wondered, honestly, what a waste.

I accept what your saying, but how many times were we told, or did you hear, 'when you get there, you will be able to do someting about it'.

I am not as green as I used to be.

Don't get me wrong, there have been some inept LE officers, (Probably more than I care to mention), who were for the most part out for themselves, even worse than DE officers, (Usually because they forgot that they were no longer WO1's), or simply they had lost the plot.

To give a balanced view, I have been heartened, certainly in the last ten years, to have the pleasure, no I should say the honour to serve with some top flight DE officers, (Usually fairly young one's), who have the best core and Corps interests at heart.

Gone are the days, I think of chinless wonders occupying an office in the top corridor.

I believe that the good and the brave, both DE and LE get tired of 'running against the grain' and simply move on.

I suppose the same could be said for the JNCO's, who leave between their 5 and 12 year points. Not sure what that says about me, however;

I have met some very senior officers, who I both respect and admire, but they have been very few and far in between.

Ultimately, the Army is still a class ridden society, led by Esprit de Corps, which is in part why it works and what makes it tick.

I just wish that the individuals who can make a difference were not so easily marginalised, or persuaded that they would be better suited outside of the Armed Forces.
 
#4
Anyone commissioning from the ranks does so voluntarily and therefore it is reasonable to assume they know what they are getting in to - people get tired/bored/reach their pension point/emigrate to Australia and move on...
 
#5
Nottyash: "Ultimately, the Army is still a class ridden society, led by Esprit de Corps, which is in part why it works and what makes it tick."

I assume you had been drinking lots before you penned this tosh. The Forces are a reflection of the society within which they recruit. That we have a disciplined hierarchy, hold old fashioned Values and Standards does not make us "class ridden" and we are not a society.

LE Officers remain incredibly and increasingly valuable, they provide experience, balance and continuity. Those that cannot make the jump (for which they had trained and applied for voluntarily) are not "bad" they simply either need more time or should consider another career.
For he several people you have met, there are several hundred who do succeed and enjoy a continued career.
 
#6
Outstanding said:
Nottyash: "Ultimately, the Army is still a class ridden society, led by Esprit de Corps, which is in part why it works and what makes it tick."

I assume you had been drinking lots before you penned this tosh. The Forces are a reflection of the society within which they recruit. That we have a disciplined hierarchy, hold old fashioned Values and Standards does not make us "class ridden" and we are not a society.

LE Officers remain incredibly and increasingly valuable, they provide experience, balance and continuity. Those that cannot make the jump (for which they had trained and applied for voluntarily) are not "bad" they simply either need more time or should consider another career.
For he several people you have met, there are several hundred who do succeed and enjoy a continued career.
I used to think that you spoke sense but that was just 'thoughtspeak'. Thankfully the Army is nothing like the society from which it recruits but it is Class ridden and driven, this is a major motivator for those who apply for LE Commissions. Your second paragraph about the value of LE Officers is pure propaganda.

Most of those who apply to go LE do so for financial reasons afteryears of conditioning they would be far more successful on the outside but are to some degree institutionalised. It is no surprise that they recieve the smelly end of the stick.
 
#7
From what you say it appears that you consider that LE Officers apply for two reasons - Firstly they want to be in a "class ridden society" and secondly they want finaincial reward. Strangely all this whilst they would do "much better" if they left.
Sorry mate but you are missing the point of the thread which is about the level of resposnsibility given to LE officers. In my opinion the reason that LE officers do seem to be given additional jobs is twofold. firstly they are experienced enough to know how to do most things and secondly they will actually do it.

If you disagree with my second paragraph please explain why.
 
#8
Come on mate. You do not think that LE officers will ever be anything other than grossly over promoted ORs do you? The whole LE thing was created to fill posts that would otherwise remain vacant an (in RMP at least) means that there will always be the ' Uncle Toms' who will pick up the worst of the tasks. I think that these people, who in the main are idealists who once they achieve there aim become dissalusioned when they realise just quite how imperfect the object of there desires is.

On checking it was the third paragraph which is tosh.
 
#9
Outstanding, you wouldn't be a DE officer by any chance.

I had, had a few beers when I penned the thread, (you must be a detective), but not so many alas to dilute my view. The thread was by no means meant to upset anyone nor denigrate one particular group. Nor was it meant to start an argument, although I will submit that it was meant to be contraversial, with a view to starting a semi serious Friday night debate.

As I said previously, I consider it to be a shame that capable, enthusiastic and forward thinking individuals are worked to the point, where they decide it isn't worth it and leave.

I was simply curious about other points of view and trying to start a debate, which correct me if I am wrong is one of the staples of this website.

Unless of course you don't believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, which if true, would tend to re-enforce my suspicion that you are a member of the 'officer corps'.

Lighten up fella and if you disagree with my opinion that's fine, its a shame however, that the only qualified and well thought out response, 'Utter Tosh' fell short of adult reasoned debate.
 
#10
If , by the time you have enough service in to become an LE ocfficer, you haven't realised that there is normally a lot of work involved in doing that type of job you really shouldn't be classed as clever enough to do it.
Try coming out and finding a job with that sort of pay and you'll see how luckyb you really are.
 
#11
Of course we as an organisation are absolutely still class-ridden, albeit less than, say, 20 years ago. And the prestige-whore Regt/Corps are a bit more "traditional" in their views than those further down the seniority list

For example, would Prince William or Prince Harry have joined any Corps as an OR? No I don't think so, because they are toffs, genetically superior to commoners and trusted by god to give orders to plebs as their birthright. So only a cavalry or guards officer would do. How many of our Generals have anything but cut-glass home counties accents? Very few. When does a rich toff ever join as a common lesser-spotted soldier? Never. My glibness aside, let's not deny what we know to be true, even though it is less pronounced than it used to be.

Anyway, less of the class warrior bit. The argument goes that these days far more army entrants (officer and soldier) have university degrees and years of work experience and are generally a few years older. Years ago, both soldiers and officers joined young and were indoctrinated into our culture at the earliest possible opportunity, therefore we accepted the status quo.

LE officers used to do the jobs that no one else wanted to do, account for bedspaces, tell wives that their husbands were missing limbs and sign works tickets. Now that pseudo-apartheid gap has narrowed, people have realised that a lot of staff jobs are better suited to career soldiers (SNCO, WO or LE Offr) who have a wealth of vocational experience. Unfortunately, many people would still like commoners to be back in their box and stop stealing their jobs as it dilutes their own power base. So we will always have a bit of a conflict between the jobs that LEs can do and the jobs that they will be allowed to do. The traditional argument always harps on about young dynamic leaders, but that's not what you need from a staff officer, you need pragmatism.

Come the revolution brothers! :twisted:
 
#12
I was on my resettlement workshop and with a mix of Officers (DE) and soldiers. Even as they were heading for civi st the DEs all sat together, never spoke to us plebs and basically acted in a superior tone going on about how they were all going to be Project Managers along the M4 corridor. OMG, what a big shock you guys are going to have outside thought I! It is still class ridden and most certainly does not reflect life outside.
 
#13
bullshit said:
I was on my resettlement workshop and with a mix of Officers (DE) and soldiers. Even as they were heading for civi st the DEs all sat together, never spoke to us plebs and basically acted in a superior tone going on about how they were all going to be Project Managers along the M4 corridor. OMG, what a big shock you guys are going to have outside thought I! It is still class ridden and most certainly does not reflect life outside.
What else did you expect from people who have been institutionalised in the army?

msr
 
#14
Now that's what I call reasonable and rational debate, with a well thought out and formed argument.

Smashing thread.
 
#15
To throw in my few penn'th

The idea of the over promoted SNCO is wrong-any LE will tell you that the type of work you do as an LE is totally different and you require a far different skill set.

Modern selection methods (thogh it varies betwwen cap badges) mean the financial motivation is only one aspect. There is nothing wrong in seekng the personal development aned better pension that commisioning brings but that is only part of the deal.

~as for the DEs sitting together at CTW - so what? People tend to gather in groups with whom they have something in common with.

I am an LE in a Corps that values and develops LEs and my current location is with a Bn who treat LE's with respect due our experience. Sure I ain't ever going to be a General and only have an outside chance of half colonel, but I am very good at what I do and worked bloody hard to get where I am now and I bow to no man in that!!
 
#16
devexwarrior said:
I am an LE in a Corps that values and develops LEs and my current location is with a Bn who treat LE's with respect due our experience. Sure I ain't ever going to be a General and only have an outside chance of half colonel, but I am very good at what I do and worked bloody hard to get where I am now and I bow to no man in that!!
Speaking as a complete outsider, isn't that therefore evidence that LEs are overlooked? Or is it a matter of timescale? :?
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#17
I've met some truly decent LE's (all of whom are good friends but I can count them all on one hand) within my former badge, however, the majority were of the ilk that crawled their way up to the top as fast as their slippery little limbs could take them (some are the same people who are 'jumping ship' as they are now faced with deployments. Australia anyone?) But, who can blame them? I was in a badge which encourages that sort of behaviour, so why shouldn't they take full advantage of it?

Over the board, the LE used to be an individual who you respected, without any shadow of doubt. He'd been there, seen it, ate it, drank it, skinned it, wore it and took a bit home for the wife. Now? Again, staying with my former badge, in the majority of cases no f*cking chance. Lead by Example? Yep, some of them have done so, but others have taken a totally different slant upon that motto, and sadly it's them who influence their 'mini-me's' to pursue the holy grail that is the LE Commission and the 'mini-me's' when they eventually get there having kissed arrse, expect their arrses to be kissed by those who follow them and there are many willing participants. All want the kudos of being in charge, but the responsibility and accountability? Well, that's for another time.

I've met some remarkable LE Officers and they have advised and guided me throughout many of the issues which I faced during my service (some still do and I'm a bloody civvy now!), but the station in which the LE Officer was once held (again, I speak only for my own), just isn't what it was. Honesty,impartiality, trust, loyalty, respect for your soldiers, service before self, are lost on most of them. Sadly (not that they give a sh*t anyway), their conduct sends out all of the wrong signals.

Playing politics was another entertaining factor with LE's. Marvellous to see them all together trying to out do each other by firing the latest 'business speak' into the conversation. The utter sneakiness and nastiness of some made Dick Dasterdley and Eric Pollard look like rank amateurs.

Still, from the rank of Major upwards, they don't even like each other, which is particularly apparant when the pink list is due, so I suppose their 'insecurities' about their own abilities is Gods way of saying, you joined the wrong Lodge.
 
#18
Two issues raised. In order:

Overworked: Not necessarily, so and maybe much is self-imposed work. The key difference between LE and DE officers is that DE tend to ruthlessly prioritise and ignore that which is too far down the list, whereas LE generally try to complete all tasks, albeit in some semblance of priority. In addition, the majority of LE jobs are purely in a hands-on, as opposed to thinking, role.

Overlooked: Depends on the context. If an LE officer remains as LE then he will be aware from the outset that he has an excellent chance of reaching the rank of major; he will be equally aware that LE Lt Col posts are extremely limited and that he will more than likely not hold the winning ticket for this particular lottery. Ability to this rank does not generally come into it - it's really down to which senior officers are prepared to bat on their behalf.

On the other hand the opportunity to convert to DE is open to many LE officers, but many choose not to take this route as it would entail attendance at ICSC ,and with that comes the inevitable realisation that in terms of knowledge, the ability to conduct estimates, and brevity and clarity in both of thought and action, their shortcomings will be ruthlessly exposed.

No axe to grind either way. Both types of commission are necessary and both sets of officers have equal numbers of bloody good operators, the merely average, and utterly incompetent.

PAW
 
#19
Scabster_Mooch said:
devexwarrior said:
I am an LE in a Corps that values and develops LEs and my current location is with a Bn who treat LE's with respect due our experience. Sure I ain't ever going to be a General and only have an outside chance of half colonel, but I am very good at what I do and worked bloody hard to get where I am now and I bow to no man in that!!
Speaking as a complete outsider, isn't that therefore evidence that LEs are overlooked? Or is it a matter of timescale? :?
Mostly time-an LE will almost always be pushing 40 before commisioning and hasn't the time to get the right jobs, staff college etc in before retirement. There is scope for LEs to move to the DE roster and play catch up-personally I am quite happy with my terms of service-most DEs will never make half colonel either
 
#20
msr said:
bullshit said:
I was on my resettlement workshop and with a mix of Officers (DE) and soldiers. Even as they were heading for civi st the DEs all sat together, never spoke to us plebs and basically acted in a superior tone going on about how they were all going to be Project Managers along the M4 corridor. OMG, what a big shock you guys are going to have outside thought I! It is still class ridden and most certainly does not reflect life outside.
What else did you expect from people who have been institutionalised in the army?

msr
But did you and your ex soldier mates go and sit with them. It's not a case of officers sit with officers and ORs sit with ORs because the officers are toffs it's a case of you sit with people who youhave something in common with. If there had been a mix of Infantry lads and tankies you would have split along those lines. All these postings point to a severe case of inverted snobbery.

Edited to add. Because I know I'm as good but no better than the officers I have no problenm with them.
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top