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Landing Craft and Amphibious Doctrine / capability

#1
How many Landing Craft do we have all told?

It seems the RLC has two medium ones in Cyprus and four small ones to share between the Falklands and UK.

How many have the Navy got? Do we expect to do everything by helicopter nowadays?

Come to think of it - do we have the capability to put a CR2 onto a beach under fire?


Edit to title to better reflect what this will hopefully develop into.
 
#2
Not sure which Landing craft were available at the time (1991/1992 approx) but with a CR2 aboard they couldn't get off the beach so to speak once one was loaded . We expierienced similiar problems even trying to get one aboard a US aircraft (not sure of designation) in so much as that it just did not fit .
 
#3
17 P&M Regt have several RCLs on their books (these are the ones referred to in Cyprus). They are CR2 capable, look like this but are not capable of being transported in or on any in-service ship (ie they either self deploy (slowly) or are moved on a commercial heavy lift vessel):

http://www.army.mod.uk/rlc/logistic_equipment/rcl.htm

However, it's worth noting that the CR2 itself isnt really beach capable. So, the suggestion that there might be something amiss with procurement in the, incorrect in any case, assertion that we don't appear to have 'anything that can get a CR2 on the beach under fire' is slightly misplaced. Indeed, why else would we spend so much of the tax payers hard-earned on Viking. That's not to say that the Cdo Bde arent up for working alongside CR2...

Incidentally, the 4 x LSD(A)s do not have their own landing craft. However, they are designed to operate with both MEXEFLOTE (which can carry just about anything inc CR2) and the LCU (Landing Craft Utility). Furthermore, the RCL cannot work easily with the LSD(A) as they are too wide and tall to fit in the back ( you can get a MEXE in the back though). LSD(A)s are operated by the RFA whereas the LPDs are operated by the RN; this should give an indication of the extent of their role. UK Defence no longer has any ships that are (deliberately) beachable (less the one remaining LSL, Sir Bedivere (which is due imminent retirement anyway) and less the commercial vessel that is used to resup the Hebrides).

Crap pic of an LCU:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.4129/changeNav/3533

LSD(A):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_class_landing_ship_dock_(auxiliary)

LSL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Sir_Bedivere_(L3004)

These days, if you want a CR2 to appear on the map anywhere fast, you can stick it in the cack of one of these bad boys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-17_Globemaster_III
 
#4
RCL......somewhere VERY cold!



LCL beached.........somewhere VERY hot!




Stern gate of LSL, loading kit onto MEXEFLOTE.




RCL beached, LSL out at sea in the background.

 
#5
If Viking, (good as it may be) is the only, ahem, armoured vehicle we can assault a beach with I would venture that we don't have any capability.

We really ought to be able to land CR2 and WR.

I suppose Scorpion (i.e 76mm gun) would be of some help to support Viking but of course we scrapped or converted them all... :roll:

You would think that OP Overlord was sufficiently significant to stick in the minds of the service chiefs.
 
#7
Monster said:
I have been told apparently you can get a cr2 on the deck of a RCL but you cant get It down the ramp.
I'm not absolutely certain but I think that may be complete tosh.

Hang on, I'll make a phone call...
 
#8
Yep, thought so. You can.
 
#9
Dragstrip said:
I'm not absolutely certain but I think that may be complete tosh.

Hang on, I'll make a phone call...

[hr]


Yep, though so. You can.
that's what I love about ARRSE!
 
#10
OK looks like I have been told porky pies, thanks for setting the record straight Dragstrip. I am now going to poke my finger at a certain Pearson and start a argument.
 
#11
Not relevant, but we used to have 2 x RPLs (as well as 2 x VPL) in Belize too.

 
#12
Had this by pm for reasons that become obvious:

hi mate,

17 Port & Maritime operate a number of what are called
Ramped Craft Logistic - see pic here.

Although the text mentions two are in Cyprus there are four based at Marchwood - I saw one coming through the harbour entrance at Portsmouth last week funnily enough.

I've crewed on one and I was told by the Sqn WO1 ( though not seen it done) that they could carry qty 1 Chally.

The remark about loading one from a beach is c***.....they would be loaded from a hard standing ( on an op this would be out the stern door of one of the RFAs or HMS Ocean) onto the craft, taken to the beach and then put ashore.

Dunno about 'opposed' landing....the Royal Marines LCU MK10's and LCVP would be used to put light forces ashore to secure the beachhead.

Then a beach unit from 17 Port or their TA regt 165(V) ) would come in on a Mexefloat ( which is a fack-off big steel powered lighter that can carry 8 DROPS) - and lay a trackway over the beach to firm ground/road.

THEN you bring your Ramped Craft Logistic with qty 1 Chally into the beach and it drives onto the trackway and up off the sand.

Until 1997 we had 2 off Landing Ship Tank - the HMAV Ardennes and HMAV Arakan.

They had a clamshell door at the bow and could carry (IIRC) 4 off MBTs each.

Anyway FWIW.

Sorry about the PM but not able to post at the mo - Stasi fun police at work grieving me. feel free to quote on the board if you wish Smile

all the best,
So we would have to assualt a beach without armour, armour only becoming available for the breakout?
 
#15
EX_STAB said:
Had this by pm for reasons that become obvious:

hi mate,

17 Port & Maritime operate a number of what are called
Ramped Craft Logistic - see pic here.

Although the text mentions two are in Cyprus there are four based at Marchwood - I saw one coming through the harbour entrance at Portsmouth last week funnily enough.

I've crewed on one and I was told by the Sqn WO1 ( though not seen it done) that they could carry qty 1 Chally.

The remark about loading one from a beach is c***.....they would be loaded from a hard standing ( on an op this would be out the stern door of one of the RFAs or HMS Ocean) onto the craft, taken to the beach and then put ashore.

Dunno about 'opposed' landing....the Royal Marines LCU MK10's and LCVP would be used to put light forces ashore to secure the beachhead.

Then a beach unit from 17 Port or their TA regt 165(V) ) would come in on a Mexefloat ( which is a fack-off big steel powered lighter that can carry 8 DROPS) - and lay a trackway over the beach to firm ground/road.

THEN you bring your Ramped Craft Logistic with qty 1 Chally into the beach and it drives onto the trackway and up off the sand.

Until 1997 we had 2 off Landing Ship Tank - the HMAV Ardennes and HMAV Arakan.

They had a clamshell door at the bow and could carry (IIRC) 4 off MBTs each.

Anyway FWIW.

Sorry about the PM but not able to post at the mo - Stasi fun police at work grieving me. feel free to quote on the board if you wish Smile

all the best,
So we would have to assualt a beach without armour, armour only becoming available for the breakout?
That's about it. This is what we have a Cdo Bde for I think.

The bottom line in practice will depend upon the situation. If the commander feels that CR2 is required and it is practical, then it may happen. Why not?

Practicalities will include whether the terra-analysis concludes that the beach is suitable for Tank. Plain ol' sand is great of course as the heavier you get, the better.

Incidentally, the HMAV Arakan and HMAV Ardennes were not 'Landing Ships Tank' but Landing Craft Logistic (LCL).
 
M

Mr_Logic

Guest
#16
EX_STAB said:
How many Landing Craft do we have all told?

It seems the RLC has two medium ones in Cyprus and four small ones to share between the Falklands and UK.

How many have the Navy got? Do we expect to do everything by helicopter nowadays?

Come to think of it - do we have the capability to put a CR2 onto a beach under fire?
What a strange question. Are you planning something 'interesting' involving an opposed beach landing with armour? I think we last tried that at Suez and the nice Mr Eden was seriously back-termed for a poor showing on that particular command appointment.

By the way, I believe the RLC has six RCLs. They have a crew of six and are commanded by a SSgt. That must be a fantastic job, if you like rum, sodomy and the lash.
 
#17
Mr_Logic said:
EX_STAB said:
How many Landing Craft do we have all told?

It seems the RLC has two medium ones in Cyprus and four small ones to share between the Falklands and UK.

How many have the Navy got? Do we expect to do everything by helicopter nowadays?

Come to think of it - do we have the capability to put a CR2 onto a beach under fire?
What a strange question. Are you planning something 'interesting' involving an opposed beach landing with armour? I think we last tried that at Suez and the nice Mr Eden was seriously back-termed for a poor showing on that particular command appointment.

By the way, I believe the RLC has six RCLs. They have a crew of six and are commanded by a SSgt. That must be a fantastic job, if you like rum, sodomy and the lash.
I came across an article on Landing Craft which prompted me to wonder what we had. That's all.

I think it's interesting that our Beach Landing doctrine seems to involve no use of armour. We seem to be using armour at every level elsewhere.
 
M

Mr_Logic

Guest
#18
EX_STAB said:
Mr_Logic said:
EX_STAB said:
How many Landing Craft do we have all told?

It seems the RLC has two medium ones in Cyprus and four small ones to share between the Falklands and UK.

How many have the Navy got? Do we expect to do everything by helicopter nowadays?

Come to think of it - do we have the capability to put a CR2 onto a beach under fire?
What a strange question. Are you planning something 'interesting' involving an opposed beach landing with armour? I think we last tried that at Suez and the nice Mr Eden was seriously back-termed for a poor showing on that particular command appointment.

By the way, I believe the RLC has six RCLs. They have a crew of six and are commanded by a SSgt. That must be a fantastic job, if you like rum, sodomy and the lash.
I came across an article on Landing Craft which prompted me to wonder what we had. That's all.

I think it's interesting that our Beach Landing doctrine seems to involve no use of armour. We seem to be using armour at every level elsewhere.
Oh, you are being serious.

I believe that it is accepted military doctrine that the Army do not have (or require) an opposed beach landing capability. I believe the RM and SBS may have certain small scale capabilities but the Army needs an SPOD and APOD for our level of operations, in virtually all cases.

Opposed theatre entry is a very messy business. The last time we did it was in 1982 (IIRC) and then the enemy was mostly at arms length. Admittedly we have crossed a sandy border a couple of times but that wasn't exactly a significant geographic feature. After the lessons learned at Dieppe in 1942 it still took a full war-time economy two years to develop, manufacture, train with and deploy the equipment required for OP OVERLORD. That timescale is an indication of the difficulty and complexity of a large-scale opposed beach landing.

Now if you really want to get handbags flying you should ask about inserting a force by parachute and how we subsequently sustain it in anything less than a benign enviroment.
 

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