Lanchester Mk 1 SMG or Auction in US

#3
I'd need some Brasso applied to my bank account before I could afford that.

The last one I saw for sale was a de-act for E200 in France, that was a while back though...
 
#5
IIRC some Lanchesters came back through UK MoD as late as the 1990s. They'd been stores on various warships sold off to other countries, and had been returned back as part of some disposal clause when the ships were finally scrapped.
 
#7
It is indeed very cruel to taunt us with these things, but who wrote that description? "this gun is super controllable" from that phrase onwards all I could hear was Big Gay Al reading it.
 

_Chimurenga_

LE
Gallery Guru
#8
Is it so expensive because it's 'transferable' ?
I think it's getting a lot of attention because it's being sold under a Curio & Relic license rather than a Class III license. JJH can explain the differences much better than I can.
 
#9
Is it so expensive because it's 'transferable' ?
Precisely--it is one of only 2 categories of full auto weapons private citizen (non dealers) can possess.

C&R--

[h=2]Collectors of Curio and Relic (C&R) Firearms[/h] A special type of FFL is available to collectors of curio or relic (C&R) firearms. C&R firearms are defined in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 478.11 as those "...of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons." An application for a C&R FFL is filed using ATF Form 7CR.
To be recognized by ATF as a C&R firearm, a firearm must fall into at least one of the following three categories:

  1. Firearms manufactured more than 50 years prior to the current date, not including replicas
  2. Firearms certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum that exhibits firearms as curios or relics of museum interest
  3. Any other firearms that derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category requires evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
C&R firearms include most manually operated and semi-automatic firearms used by a military force prior to 1963. This includes most firearms used by the warring nations in World War I and World War II. However, the firearm must normally also be in its original configuration to retain the C&R designation. So, for example, an unaltered Mauser Karabiner 98k rifle used by the German Army in World War II is a C&R firearm—but the same rifle "sporterized" with a new stock and finish is generally not considered a C&R firearm. There is an ambiguous point in how the license is currently administered, in that some firearms altered by the militaries that issued them have been confirmed by the BATFE to retain C&R status, though whether this applies to all such conversions (the examples given by the BATFE were the Spanish M1916 Guardia Civil, FR-7, and FR-8 Mausers) also remains ambiguous. However, as long as the receiver (the part of the firearm that is regulated by the BATFE) is over 50 years old (was manufactured before 1963) the firearm qualifies as a Curio & Relic — the BATFE states explicitly that, in addition to newer firearms it individually approves, firearms automatically achieve C&R status upon turning 50. Certain automatic weapons have been designated as C&R firearms, and although a C&R FFL can be used to acquire these as well, they are also subject to the controls imposed by the National Firearms Act of 1934. ATF maintains a current list of approved C&R firearms on its website.
Licensed collectors (who have been issued a C&R FFL) may acquire C&R firearms in interstate commerce, e.g., via mail or phone order or the Internet, or in person. (This is especially important for collectors of pistols and revolvers since they may not otherwise be acquired outside a collector's state of residence.) However, the selling FFL dealer or collector must have a copy of the buyer's C&R FFL before the C&R firearm can be shipped to the licensed collector. Licensed collectors are not considered to be FFL dealers and have no special privileges concerning non-C&R firearms, nor may they "engage in the business" of regularly selling C&R firearms to persons who do not have an FFL. The purpose of the C&R license is to enable a collector to acquire C&R firearms for his/her personal collection and not to become a firearms dealer.
[h=3]Curio & Relic Compliance Inspections[/h] "(D) At the election of a licensed collector, the annual inspection of records and inventory permitted under this paragraph shall be performed at the office of the Attorney General designed for such inspections which is located in closest proximity to the premises where the inventory and records of such licensed collector are maintained." ATF 2005 Regulations page 18. (ATF Publication 5300.4) Licensed collectors may also elect to have the inspection conducted at their homes. While C&R compliance used to consist of just bringing the bound book to the appropriate office, Inspectors are now (2009) often requiring that collectors bring their inventory (collection) to their office if they can not inspect them in the home.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
[h=3]Conversion of C&R firearms[/h] Any firearm sold as a C&R weapon once changed out of its original configuration cannot be resold as a C&R weapon. In regard to conversions; certain pistols have been approved for sale with added safety conversions (i.e. Polish and Romanian Tokarev pistols, to which a manual safety was added to meet import requirements). Certain other modifications, such as period sporterisations, are arguably C&R qualified as they represent the gun culture of the period. An example would be a Lee-Enfield or 98K Mauser military rifle that had been converted into a continental style sporter before World War II. These common conversions occurred more than 50 years ago, and represent a sub-type of special interest to collectors.

or on a Form 4:

The domestic manufacture of new machine guns that civilians could purchase was effectively banned by language in the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 (also known as "McClure-Volkmer"). The language was added in an amendment from William J. Hughes and referred to as the Hughes Amendment.[SUP][24][/SUP] Machine guns legally registered prior to the date of enactment (i.e. May 1986) are still legal for possession by and transfer among civilians where permitted by state law. The static and relatively small number of transferable machine guns has caused their price to rise, often over $10,000, although transferable Mac-10 and Mac-11 submachine guns can still be purchased for around $3,500. Machine guns manufactured after the FOPA's enactment can be sold only to law enforcement and government agencies, exported, or held as inventory or "dealer samples" by licensed manufacturers and dealers. Machine guns made after 1986 for law enforcement but not transferable to civilian registration are usually priced only a few hundred dollars more than their semi-automatic counterparts, whereas a pre-Hughes Amendment registered machine gun that can be legally transferred commands a huge premium.
 
#10
IIRC some Lanchesters came back through UK MoD as late as the 1990s. They'd been stores on various warships sold off to other countries, and had been returned back as part of some disposal clause when the ships were finally scrapped.
It's amazing how some of the old stuff kicks around. I saw crewmen carrying these on an Italian ship in 1988.

beretta.jpg
 
#13
It's actually a Mk.1*, rather than MK.1. I imagine that a proper Mk.1 would be even sillier money because you just don't see them. Or maybe the septics don't know the difference.

I have deact Mk.1* that I bought just over twenty years ago. I believe that it is worth a good deal nowadays.
 
#14
It is indeed very cruel to taunt us with these things, but who wrote that description? "this gun is super controllable" from that phrase onwards all I could hear was Big Gay Al reading it.
Its super controllable as it is really heavy. Had a play with one once on the next guys turn it broke and emptied the entire magazine in one burst hardly jumped.
 
#15
JJH teasing everyone again?

Whilst there are a variety of ways and means for owning a legit, what is loacally known as, a "once fired brass maker" there is honestly nothing stopping less scrupulous individuals having an illegal one.

All the bits are available for legal purchase, the crime is putting them together into one piece. Tell me honestly why would anyone buy full-auto Uzi bolts when they cannot fit into a semi-auto frame without paying more than the cost of a semi-auto bolt to have it machined to fit? Hmmmmm???? Likewise MP5's, the whole HK family really, the trigger assembly for a mil spec HK is actually illegal if fitted and functioning as is on a civvy owned HK, but you can buy shed loads of them along with full auto spec bolts and other necessary bits. Why??

And funnily enough at the moment every dealer who sells such things is sold out.

Machine guns are seen as an investment by many, they are bought, stroked, stored, never fired and sold a couple of years later with a better return than would be possible if you placed your cash in the bank. Everytime the item is transferred there is the cost of the transfer tax to the Feds, the cost of paying a dealer to receive the item and then maybe some other costs - which I will not bore you with. Basically if you buy an MG and keep it for 10 years a comparable MG could have been bought and sold 10 times in that same period and every transaction pushes the price up, so yours goes up because the other one is being sold on.

I was once reliably informed that the Knob Creek machine gun shoot has more millionaires per square foot than the New York Stock Exchange. I believe it, I have seen original full auto MP5's for over $20K.
 
#16
JJH teasing everyone again?

Whilst there are a variety of ways and means for owning a legit, what is loacally known as, a "once fired brass maker" there is honestly nothing stopping less scrupulous individuals having an illegal one.

All the bits are available for legal purchase, the crime is putting them together into one piece. Tell me honestly why would anyone buy full-auto Uzi bolts when they cannot fit into a semi-auto frame without paying more than the cost of a semi-auto bolt to have it machined to fit? Hmmmmm???? Likewise MP5's, the whole HK family really, the trigger assembly for a mil spec HK is actually illegal if fitted and functioning as is on a civvy owned HK, but you can buy shed loads of them along with full auto spec bolts and other necessary bits. Why??

And funnily enough at the moment every dealer who sells such things is sold out.

Machine guns are seen as an investment by many, they are bought, stroked, stored, never fired and sold a couple of years later with a better return than would be possible if you placed your cash in the bank. Everytime the item is transferred there is the cost of the transfer tax to the Feds, the cost of paying a dealer to receive the item and then maybe some other costs - which I will not bore you with. Basically if you buy an MG and keep it for 10 years a comparable MG could have been bought and sold 10 times in that same period and every transaction pushes the price up, so yours goes up because the other one is being sold on.

I was once reliably informed that the Knob Creek machine gun shoot has more millionaires per square foot than the New York Stock Exchange. I believe it, I have seen original full auto MP5's for over $20K.
You are right about the arcane and arbitrary nature of the National Firearms Act. For example, since I have a full spare parts set for my M16, I cannot keep a semiauto lower in the house As the Feds deem the full auto sear to be constructively installed in the semiauto lower.

I stick to the law, however, as I do not relish 10 years in a federal pen learning to be someone's girlfriend.


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#17
It's looks like a Mk.1, rather than MK.1* to me the Mk1* was a Air Ministry Pattern Introduced under L. of C. 22675
77/6/5031 with louvered barrel jacket and no steam hose. The land pattern Vickers Gun never advanced beyond Mk1 but the barrel jacket did change from fluted to smooth Mk1* in 1918
 
#18
77/6/5031 with louvered barrel jacket and no steam hose. The land pattern Vickers Gun never advanced beyond Mk1 but the barrel jacket did change from fluted to smooth Mk1* in 1918
I'd thought Beerhunter was referring to the "Mk 1 Lanchester"; the Mk 1 had sights that were adjsutable up to 600 yards; the Mk 1* had a 100 or 200 yard flip sight, as does the model shown. Most of the Mk 1s were altered to the Mk 1* specification and so are rare. There were other differences (full auto only?), but I don't know what they were without looking on the internet.
 
#19
It's looks like a Mk.1, rather than MK.1* to me the Mk1* was a Air Ministry Pattern Introduced under L. of C. 22675
I was referring to the Lanchester and it IS a Mk.1*.

Other than the rear sight, the major difference of a Mkl.1* compared to a Mk.1, is the lack of a change switch and so the Mk.1* is fully auto only.

Yes, I believe that most Mk.1s were converted to Mk.1* - which is, partly, why they are so rare.
 

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