Lance Jack and Full Screw???

#1
In a recent conversation at work we were talking about the origins of certain ranks(CMoH, LSgt etc) and someone asked the question "Why Lance Jack and Full Screw". None of us could come up with a sensible answer and wondered if this was the place to pose the question. Can anyone shed any light. Virtual pint for anything that sounds right :D
 
#2
Lance jack because now hes got his first stripe he can be a bit jack by ordering the blokes to do the gash jobs.

As for screw, god knows!
 
#6
amazing__lobster said:
Way off the mark, but is it anyway related to screws in the prison service, being enforcers of discipline and all that?
Bang on the mark actually I believe...
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#7
Until the mid 1800s, prisons, at least in England, were places of punishment only, with no concept of rehabilitation for the prisoners. One of the forms of punishment was to crank a handle attached to a large wooden box. The cranking did nothing, other than turn a counter. The prisoner had to do 10,000 turns in 8 hours, equivalent to one every 3 seconds or so. As an extra punishment a warder could tighten a screw to make turning more difficult. Warders came to be known as 'screws'. By inference, the prisoner was 'screwed' and, although 'screw' remained within the prison environment, eventually 'to be screwed' became widespread.


Nothing changed then!
 
#8
I don't know how true this is but I’ll throw it out there anyway.
A reg RSM at a training establishment once told me the background to the Lance Corporal rank was this.....in days gone by if a cavalry troopers' lance was broken or horse died or could no longer act in a Calvary capacity then he has transferred to the Infantry. Now because the cavalry was deemed to be senior to the infantry, Troopers/lancers in the Calvary were automatically given the rank of Lance Corporal on transfer...

like I said, not sure if it’s true but there you go.

Padz
 
#9
Main Entry: lance corporal
Function: noun
Etymology: lance (as in obsolete lancepesade lance corporal, from Middle French lancepessade): an enlisted man in the marine corps ranking above a private first class and below a corporal
From the Online Etymology Dictionary:
lance
c.1290, from O.Fr. lance, from L. lancea "light spear" (It. lancia, Sp. lanza, Ger. Lanze), possibly of Celt-Iberian origin. The verb meaning "to pierce with a lance" is from c.1300; the surgical sense (properly with ref. to a 'lancet') is from 1474. Lance corporal (1786) is from obsolete lancepesade "officer of lowest rank" (1578), from O.It. lancia spezzata "old soldier," lit. "broken lance."
From Dictionary.com:
lancepesade
\Lance`pe*sade"\, n. [F. lancepessade, lanspessade, anspessade, It. lancia spezzata a broken lance or demilance, a demilance roan, a light horseman, bodyguard.] An assistant to a corporal; a private performing the duties of a corporal; -- called also lance corporal.
 
#10
Screws and the prison service. A mate who entred the Prison service post mentioned to me that the term 'Nonce' for a sexual deviante came from the days when the Prisoners offence was written in chalk on a board outside his cell.
As sexual deviance was not understood in thoes days (is it now) they started to write 'NO Such OffeNCE' other then bum bandit or kiddey fiddler or what ever and this shortent to Nonce.
john
Myth probaly on par with Constable On Patrol, COP.
 
#11
On ranks again, the rank of Lieutenant General always throws up some debate.

There seem to be two schools of thought as to why they are senior to Major Generals:

1) The original highest British Rank was Captain General, and so his junior was the Lieutenant General. When Major General was brought in, it was simply made junior.

2) The word Lieu, or in Lieu of, shows that the rank with it is the "place taker" of the rank above. So a Lieutenant may deputise for a Captain at company level (1800's), a Lieutenant Colonel may deputise for a Colonel (1800's, so a L/Col was the senior rank in the regiment behind the honorary colonel), and so the same with Generals. A Lieutenant General is in fact the General's "Place Taker".

I tend to go with option two, but academic books quote them both,

Any ideas?
 
#14
Xplosiverab said:
On ranks again, the rank of Lieutenant General always throws up some debate.

There seem to be two schools of thought as to why they are senior to Major Generals:

1) The original highest British Rank was Captain General, and so his junior was the Lieutenant General. When Major General was brought in, it was simply made junior.

2) The word Lieu, or in Lieu of, shows that the rank with it is the "place taker" of the rank above. So a Lieutenant may deputise for a Captain at company level (1800's), a Lieutenant Colonel may deputise for a Colonel (1800's, so a L/Col was the senior rank in the regiment behind the honorary colonel), and so the same with Generals. A Lieutenant General is in fact the General's "Place Taker".

I tend to go with option two, but academic books quote them both,

Any ideas?
I was told once that Major General came from Sergeant Major General orginally, again could be urban legend
 
#15
yes i heard the army was like a company of the day

capt gen was head honcho
lt gen was his 2ic
sgt maj gen was IC admin etc.

then the capt and sgt titles were dropped and thats what we're left with today.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#16
Xplosiverab said:
On ranks again, the rank of Lieutenant General always throws up some debate.

There seem to be two schools of thought as to why they are senior to Major Generals:

1) The original highest British Rank was Captain General, and so his junior was the Lieutenant General. When Major General was brought in, it was simply made junior.

2) The word Lieu, or in Lieu of, shows that the rank with it is the "place taker" of the rank above. So a Lieutenant may deputise for a Captain at company level (1800's), a Lieutenant Colonel may deputise for a Colonel (1800's, so a L/Col was the senior rank in the regiment behind the honorary colonel), and so the same with Generals. A Lieutenant General is in fact the General's "Place Taker".

I tend to go with option two, but academic books quote them both,

Any ideas?
The second part is quite correct, but it doesn't explain Maj Gen.

The story I heard, long before the days of the internet so I don't know if I can substantiate it, came from the early part of the seventeenth century and that there was a rank of Sgt Maj Gen and eventually the Sgt part was discarded.
When the first part was dropped I don't know, but perhaps it had something to do with snobbery, not wanting to be associated with the common soldiery.

I know there were Sgt Maj Gens during the Civil Wars, eg Phillip Skippon held that rank in the New Model Army.
There were also Col Gens, meaning a senior Col rather than a Gen rank.



Edit.
Kinell !
Ain't the internet wonderful !

http://www.militaryhusbands.com/ranks/triv4-5m.html

www.militaryhusbands.com said:
Before the Sixteenth Century armies were usually formed only when needed for a war or campaign. The king would be the commander but he might appoint a Captain General to command in his name. Later, when the title of Colonel became popular some kings called their commanders Colonel General. The British Army stopped using the Captain part of the title by the Eighteenth Century leaving just General as-the top commander. Some nations still use the Colonel General rank, among them the Soviet Union and East Germany. The king or his Captain General would often be away from the army since they had interests elsewhere so the job of actually running the army fell to the Captain General's assistant--his lieutenant--the Lieutenant General. This was not a permanent rank until the Seventeenth Century. One of the Colonels might be appointed Lieutenant General for a particular campaign or war but he would still command his own regiment. Since he might also be Captain of a company in his regiment, it was possible for one man to serve as Captain, Colonel and General simultaneously.

The army's chief administrative officer was the Sergeant Major General who was also appointed for the particular campaign or war. He would be an experienced soldier, possibly a commoner, who served as chief of staff. For much of his administrative work he dealt with the regimental Sergeant Majors, thus his title meant "overall" or "chief" Sergeant Major. His duties included such things as supply, organization, and forming the army for battle or march. Here again, as with the regimental Sergeant Major, a loud, commanding voice was a key requirement. As the General ranks became fixed during the Seventeenth Century the Sergeant portion fell away leaving the title as Major General. We can see this trend in England where in 1655 Oliver Cromwell, who ruled that nation temporarily as Lord Protector, organized the country into eleven military districts each commanded by a Major General.
http://15.1911encyclopedia.org/M/MA/MAJORCA_ISL_.htm
The use of Major as part of an official title in Med. Lat. las given the Span, mayor, Fr. maire, and Eng. " mayor " [q.v.). In English the unadapted form "major" is the title of a military officer now ranking between a captain and a lieutenant-colonel. Originally the word was used adjectivally in the title sergeant-major," an officer of high rank (third in command of an army) who performed the same duties of administration, drill and encampments on the staff of the chief commander as the sergeant in a company performs as assistant to the captain. This was in the latter half of the i6th century, and very-soon afterwards the " sergeant-major " became known as the " sergeant-major-general "hence the modern title of major-general. By the time of the English Civil War " majors " had been introduced in each regiment of foot, who-corresponded in a lesser sphere to the " major-general" of the whole army. The major's sphere of duties, precedence and title have since varied but little, though he has, in the British service, taken the place of the lieutenant-colonel as second in commandthe latter officer exercising the command of the cavalry regiment, infantry battalion or artillery brigade, and the colonel being, save for certain administrative functions, little more than the titular chief of his regiment. Junior majors command companies of infantry; squadrons of cavalry and batteries of artillery are also commanded by majors. In most European armies, however, and of late years in the army of the United States also, the major has become a battalion commander under the orders of a regimental commander (colonel or lieutenant-colonel). The word appears also in the British service in " brigade-major " (the adjutant or staff officer of a brigade). " Town-majors" (garrison staff officers) are now no longer appointed. In the French service up to 1871 the " major-general " was the chief of the general staff of a field army, and thus preserved the tradition of the former " sergeant-major " or " sergeant-major-general."
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Major_General

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_Major_General
(I'm not a fan of Wikipedia as any cnut can add their illinformed bo11ocks.)

http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Major_general

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_325a.html

The Covenanters - reference to Sgt Maj Gen.
http://www.scotwars.com/html/narra_covenanters.htm
 
#18
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