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Labour loves a man in uniform as long as its blue,not khaki

#41
"Aren't new PCs shadowed by a senoir PC for some time after starting their appointment at the station?? Unlike a new Pte, who will be expected to start his job virtually straight away, especially if a tradesman"

Yes, a new plod will have a period of being tutored whilst new on the street following attendance at Training School but I recall as a B3 Tradesman being given to a B1 for the purpose of converting my trade training into actual experience. This mostly continued until I got my B2. Has this chganged a great deal

What Section Comd would expect a Newb to step straight up to the job without some mentoring? If so, why have trade classifications?
 
#42
In my case, I was expected to know what I was doing, not necessarily for how many, but after a year in trade training, I had the necessary skills to carry out the job. The trade classifications are there to show to what level you had been trained, as a Pte, I was not expected to know the same as a Cpl of B1 class and work in the Officers Mess, but trained enough to know my way round an ORs mess. I did not expect to be shadowed until I went on my B1 and I wasn't.
 
#43
"As you are a police officer could you confirm if the following is true?

Basic police pay - 20k
London weighting - 2k
Shift Pay - 6k

Hence starting pay for a police officer out of hendon is 28k? - See pay scale below.

That seems to be very attractive! - Yes it is attractive, that's why one of the reasons I joined. I could have made more as a plumber or less as a nurse.

I don't actually think a direct comparison can be made though as there are quite surely more opporunities for advancement in the army than in the police. As I understand it, it isn't uncommon to have someone in the police retire as a constable."


Pay; to my knowledge, there is no shift pay it's just included in your overall pay. London weighting only applies to London and some parts of the Home Counties. The country doesn't revolve round London, there are many other forces in the country.

On appointment £21,009
After 32 weeks £23,454
After 2 years probation £24,813
After 3 years service £26,331
After 4 years service £27,159
After 5 years service £28,029
After 6 years service £28,830
After 7 years service £29,544
After 8 years service £30,489
After 9 years service £32,334
After 10 years service £32,985

Advancement; Um, it's different from the army. Many PC's/DC's are perfectly content in their post and see no need to move into management and away from the job they enjoy.

Specialism and Competence are not generally related to rank and thus it doesn't really compare. Lack of rank does not neccessarily indicate inability and therefore it's a dodgy comparison.

F'rinstance, a DC who has been an experienced SOCO may be in charge of an enquiry and be regularly consulted by DI's etc. Or a Child Protection Officer may have effective lead of a job.

Many PC's are specialists who choose not to be administrators. Many Sgt's or Inspectors may have been specialists but choose to move towards management.
 
#44
RoyalAnglianMum said:
I apologise if my putting this article on here makes people think that I am police bashing but that was never my intention.
Not quoting the article but copy and pasting it made people initially think that it was your own words and thoughts in your OP without going into the link you provided.
Perhaps it would be clearer and perhaps helpful to use the quote marks or quote (blue) icon on the second line 4th from left when posting might make people realise that you were merely stating someone else thoughts on the matter. :wink:
 
#45
saintstone said:
In my case, I was expected to know what I was doing, not necessarily for how many, but after a year in trade training, I had the necessary skills to carry out the job. The trade classifications are there to show to what level you had been trained, as a Pte, I was not expected to know the same as a Cpl of B1 class and work in the Officers Mess, but trained enough to know my way round an ORs mess. I did not expect to be shadowed until I went on my B1 and I wasn't.
I suspect that you were a chef, I was a Relay Op. In my trade, I was expected to have knowledge appropriate to my level of training and to develop (With the assistance of my Detachment Comd) towards B2.

In my time, this was common practice and as you became more competent and confident you moved forward.

By B2 time you were expected to be competent enough to run a Relay detachment on your own with minimum supervision and so on until you went on to the B1 course for more development in your trade.

But different trades, different training/development methods.
 
#46
Thanks for that MyssL - I must admit that I didnt know how to do that and just copied and pasted the first part of the article. Thanks again will remember that in future. I have amended the article now.
 
#47
On the advancement front, something just occurred to me...

Army pay increases with trade and rank, Police increases (Mostly) with years served and also with rank.

The police don't have system of trade classification B1/B2 etc so it's different in that respect.
 
#48
Speedkuff said:
And no, I don't believe that a soldier is a semi skilled labourer either.... When properly trained, they have all the skills required, not "Semi-skills"

You must be very young, the expression comes from the days of; unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled labour, ie the sub division of the labouring classes. To be semi skilled meant to require some skills but not enough to be classed as skilled. This was then in turn under the Crafts which had Apprentice, Journeyman, Craftsman and Master Craftsman. Following this came the professions, the Gentry, Aristocracy and Royalty. Nowerdays everyone thinks they are in the professional classes or so it seems.
 
#49
RAMum, I know you were not police bashing. We all agree about the same thing. More for our service people, whether it be money, equipment, better treatment and appreciation for what they are all doing.
 
#50
Interesting comments by all in this series of contributions.

My own view is that you cannot really quantify the role of police constable and private soldier. It is erroneous to compare the two.

Having served in the army and the police, the demands placed on each new recruit are different. The army was more physical, whereas the police was more cerebral. I experienced them both.

Both provide specialist training for the different roles that the police officer/soldier may later carry out.

Lastly, could we all please stop referring to the police as 'plod'. It is a derogatory term, which we, as serving/ex serving military people should not use. I would not use the term 'pongo' every time I was discussing the army or its' personnel. I am not into 'political correctness', only into giving the police the respect they deserve.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#51
Unsworth said:
Biscuits_AB said:
The cops have a job to do. They need the kit. Don't use them as examples of how unfair the MoD has been to us. It's not fair to do so nor does it prove anything.

Perhaps if you had a better understanding of the police,you'd realise that they are not 'showered' with money as you allege.
Why do they need this kit? Any evidence put forward yet that this will help them solve crimes? This is just about control. 'Policing with consent' is now completely abandoned.

MoD is not the paymaster, Treasury is. Expenditure on any of the forces is an entirely political decision. This just shows what the politicos priorities really are.

Junior coppers are actually paid more for a considerably less dangerous job. In peacetime that might be acceptable, but not with the current levels of commitment. Take a good look at the increases in pay and pensions and other benefits.

'Better understanding'? I'm sorry, some of us believe we already have a pretty clear understanding of what goes on. Escalating numbers, increases in budgets, more and more Rambo kit, reduced crime detection and prevention, and fewer cops actually on the streets. At least that's how it is on my patch.
Junior coppers, whether you like to hear this or not, have to pass a slightly more difficult academic exam to get into the police that we have to, to join the Infantry (and some other jobs in the mob), that's one of the reasons why they are paid a reasonable wage (currently, those joining are having to undertake degrees in some forces as part of their career path). The other, is that they shoulder a lot of responsibility. Now this will clearly go against the grain with some of you, but it comes down to choices sometimes. We all knew what was on the table when we joined. We all knew the likelihood of what we would have to do for that money, irrespective of how we feel about it today. It would be nice to get some more money, irrespective of what we do for a living, but the earlier post comparing a Pte soldiers wage to that of a PC is pointless. The jobs have very little in common. There'sno way on this earth that an Inf Pte would be paid £30k and if we were to reduce the PC's wage to £14k, we'd have no police at all.

As for the kit they get, well they have a job to do. Their budget isn't the same as ours. The fact that this Government has been holding back on paying for better wages and gear for the lads shouldn't be used as a weapon with which to batter an unrelated agency, who have nothing to do with the MoD.

What about the revelations in todays Sunday Telegraph? The MoD paid out millions to 'consultants'. How many of those 'consultants' were ex Army Officers on the gravy train? I would wager that nearly all of them were. Shouldn't your concerns be directed towards people like them who have bled the MoD and the stupidity of the MoD for letting them, instead of holding the Police responsible for the MoD's failures to provide for the lads?
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#52
western said:
Biscuits_AB said:
western said:
As I pointed out on another thread:

Pte in Helmand £14K
PC in London £30K

It not hard to see who is valued the most
What comparison are we making here? A PC on £30k has done a few years. His/her rank does not equate to anything the Army has. What about comparing a Pte's wage with some one elses? What about yours? Or a school teacher or a long distance lorry driver perhaps? Or a bus driver in Edinburgh @ £25k starting? A Pte soldier is poorly paid but these continual comparisons with what the police earn prove nothing and are pointless. It's not the fault of the police that a soldier isn't valued by this Government? Do you honestly think that a Pte soldier should be paid £30k per anum or that a PC should be paid £14k per annum?
The figure quoted is straight of the Met site and is for a PC straight out of training and prior to any overtime.

A PC is a semi skilled labourer as is a Pte soldier and therefore I do think their wages should be about the same.
Now I know that you are taking the p*ss.
 
#53
"...could we all please stop referring to the police as 'plod'..." I'm a PC and being called a plod doesn't bother me 8)

"...You must be very young..." 42 but thank you :D I didn't know the bit about gentry etc thanks for that :D
 
#54
Biscuits_AB said:
western said:
Biscuits_AB said:
western said:
As I pointed out on another thread:

Pte in Helmand £14K
PC in London £30K

It not hard to see who is valued the most
What comparison are we making here? A PC on £30k has done a few years. His/her rank does not equate to anything the Army has. What about comparing a Pte's wage with some one elses? What about yours? Or a school teacher or a long distance lorry driver perhaps? Or a bus driver in Edinburgh @ £25k starting? A Pte soldier is poorly paid but these continual comparisons with what the police earn prove nothing and are pointless. It's not the fault of the police that a soldier isn't valued by this Government? Do you honestly think that a Pte soldier should be paid £30k per anum or that a PC should be paid £14k per annum?
The figure quoted is straight of the Met site and is for a PC straight out of training and prior to any overtime.

A PC is a semi skilled labourer as is a Pte soldier and therefore I do think their wages should be about the same.
Now I know that you are taking the p*ss.
Slow Sunday
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#55
For you maybe, I have a dissertation to finish and two kids who won't bugger off and play outside. I was thinking about asking Mrs McCann for a few tips.
 
#56
Go sit on the bedroom floor and hold your head in your hand. When the kids come in bellow 'Fcuck off! Daddy's having a breakdown!' It works for me.

Back to the thread, I agree with all you say but with half the Army fcucking off and the other half not there in the first place the powers that be ought to do something.
 
#57
"...For you maybe, I have a dissertation to finish..."

It's alright for some, I haven't even had me dinner yet let alone my dissertation... :D
 
#59
Well make some room for me at the table or I'm down to a cheese sandwich until Frau Kuff returns... 8)
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#60
western said:
Go sit on the bedroom floor and hold your head in your hand. When the kids come in bellow 'Fcuck off! Daddy's having a breakdown!' It works for me.

Back to the thread, I agree with all you say but with half the Army fcucking off and the other half not there in the first place the powers that be ought to do something.[/quote]

Without a shadow of a doubt mate. I do believe though, that things will eventually improve for the troops financially and welfare wise. It'll take a bit of time, but this Government has been shown up for what it is and for what it has done to the Services. They have been embarrassed and will make amends.
 

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