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Labour loves a man in uniform as long as its blue,not khaki

#1
http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,,2165412,00.htm


While the police are showered with money, our services are cruelly underfunded and undermined by political indifference

This is the story of two uniforms. On the website of the North Wales Police are images of the chief constable Richard Brunstrom being shot by a Taser gun held by one of his officers. Mr Brunstrom, who wants to use this unpleasant weapon whenever someone 'disobeys' a police officer, is evidently something of a martinet and exhibitionist, so it was disappointing that the shock lasted just 1.5 seconds.
But it was the police uniforms that caught my eye. Under his supervision, the blue uniforms and white shirts of the past have been replaced by black, open-neck shirts in what he calls 'hi-tech' fibre, then surmounted with body armour, enormous belts carrying every possible gadget and silly looking baseball hats. His officers resemble Uruguayan riot police.


By the way has anyone heard of Help for Heroes?
 
#2
What a pity someone did'nt hook up that taser to the mains and leave it running. Brunstrom is one of the new breed of Chief Constable loved by Neu Arbeit. Very good at the PC crap, but his force has a poor record for solving crime (allegedly).
 
#3
One uniform can be relied on to support NA, the other to defend the Nation. Sadly, in this day and age it's pretty obvious where a politician's priorities will lie.
 
#4
RoyalAnglianMum said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,,2165412,00.html


While the police are showered with money, our services are cruelly underfunded and undermined by political indifference

This is the story of two uniforms. On the website of the North Wales Police are images of the chief constable Richard Brunstrom being shot by a Taser gun held by one of his officers. Mr Brunstrom, who wants to use this unpleasant weapon whenever someone 'disobeys' a police officer, is evidently something of a martinet and exhibitionist, so it was disappointing that the shock lasted just 1.5 seconds.
But it was the police uniforms that caught my eye. Under his supervision, the blue uniforms and white shirts of the past have been replaced by black, open-neck shirts in what he calls 'hi-tech' fibre, then surmounted with body armour, enormous belts carrying every possible gadget and silly looking baseball hats. His officers resemble Uruguayan riot police.

As it happens, I had Patrick Bishop's new book, 3Para, on my desk opened at some photographs of paratroopers in action in the Helmand province of Afghanistan. It was impossible not to notice that they go into action against the Taliban with little more protective wear than the police of North Wales use to confront Friday night drunks.
Excellent comments. Yes you're right. ACPO has far too much influence whereas CDS seems to have little. There are all sorts of reasons for that, I guess, one of them being 'out of sight, out of mind'. And as senior cops seem to routinely shuttle into and out of Downing Street that's hardly surprising. Of course, you'll not be seeing much in the way of Government Ministers seeking photo-ops in really dangerous places.

Glad that I'm not the only one who has become just a touch cynical about all of this manipulation of the press by our 'police service'.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#6
RoyalAnglianMum said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,,2165412,00.html


While the police are showered with money, our services are cruelly underfunded and undermined by political indifference

This is the story of two uniforms. On the website of the North Wales Police are images of the chief constable Richard Brunstrom being shot by a Taser gun held by one of his officers. Mr Brunstrom, who wants to use this unpleasant weapon whenever someone 'disobeys' a police officer, is evidently something of a martinet and exhibitionist, so it was disappointing that the shock lasted just 1.5 seconds.
But it was the police uniforms that caught my eye. Under his supervision, the blue uniforms and white shirts of the past have been replaced by black, open-neck shirts in what he calls 'hi-tech' fibre, then surmounted with body armour, enormous belts carrying every possible gadget and silly looking baseball hats. His officers resemble Uruguayan riot police.

As it happens, I had Patrick Bishop's new book, 3Para, on my desk opened at some photographs of paratroopers in action in the Helmand province of Afghanistan. It was impossible not to notice that they go into action against the Taliban with little more protective wear than the police of North Wales use to confront Friday night drunks.

By the way has anyone heard of Help for Heroes?
You sound anti police. I was quite supportive of you as a person before but to be frank, I'm not anymore. Don't try to twist that into anything that suits your argument please. I completed a full Army career, served just about everywhere and have the badges to prove it, so kindly refrain from any speculative comment which you may have in mindfor your response.

The cops have a job to do. They need the kit. Don't use them as examples of how unfair the MoD has been to us. It's not fair to do so nor does it prove anything.

Labour aren't popular here so there is no need to over egg the custard. All your post did as far as I am concerned is use the police as an example with which to have a dig at Labour. Like I said, the police have a job to do, they may not be everyone's favourites, but some of us like the iea that they are there and have the equipment to do the job.
Perhaps if you had a better understanding of the police,you'd realise that they are not 'showered' with money as you allege.
 
#7
RoyalAnglianMum said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,,2165412,00.html


While the police are showered with money, our services are cruelly underfunded and undermined by political indifference

This is the story of two uniforms. On the website of the North Wales Police are images of the chief constable Richard Brunstrom being shot by a Taser gun held by one of his officers. Mr Brunstrom, who wants to use this unpleasant weapon whenever someone 'disobeys' a police officer, is evidently something of a martinet and exhibitionist, so it was disappointing that the shock lasted just 1.5 seconds.
But it was the police uniforms that caught my eye. Under his supervision, the blue uniforms and white shirts of the past have been replaced by black, open-neck shirts in what he calls 'hi-tech' fibre, then surmounted with body armour, enormous belts carrying every possible gadget and silly looking baseball hats. His officers resemble Uruguayan riot police.

As it happens, I had Patrick Bishop's new book, 3Para, on my desk opened at some photographs of paratroopers in action in the Helmand province of Afghanistan. It was impossible not to notice that they go into action against the Taliban with little more protective wear than the police of North Wales use to confront Friday night drunks.

By the way has anyone heard of Help for Heroes?

so, a uk police officer wants to use electric shocks to obtain compliance from members of the public who dare to disobey a police officer! Is this really how far our police have fallen? we, the public, will soon need to be armed to protect us from the police. We really are turning into a third world country.

If this story accurately represents the views of this officer, he should be sacked immediately.

Ski.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#8
western said:
As I pointed out on another thread:

Pte in Helmand £14K
PC in London £30K

It not hard to see who is valued the most
What comparison are we making here? A PC on £30k has done a few years. His/her rank does not equate to anything the Army has. What about comparing a Pte's wage with some one elses? What about yours? Or a school teacher or a long distance lorry driver perhaps? Or a bus driver in Edinburgh @ £25k starting? A Pte soldier is poorly paid but these continual comparisons with what the police earn prove nothing and are pointless. It's not the fault of the police that a soldier isn't valued by this Government? Do you honestly think that a Pte soldier should be paid £30k per anum or that a PC should be paid £14k per annum?
 
#9
Biscuits AB - I didnt actually say that these were my views - just thought it an interesting article. I only quoted the first part of the article in my first post. The only bit that are my words are me asking if anyone knows anything about the Help for Heroes charity.
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#10
Biscuits_AB said:
RoyalAnglianMum said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,,2165412,00.html


While the police are showered with money, our services are cruelly underfunded and undermined by political indifference

This is the story of two uniforms. On the website of the North Wales Police are images of the chief constable Richard Brunstrom being shot by a Taser gun held by one of his officers. Mr Brunstrom, who wants to use this unpleasant weapon whenever someone 'disobeys' a police officer, is evidently something of a martinet and exhibitionist, so it was disappointing that the shock lasted just 1.5 seconds.
But it was the police uniforms that caught my eye. Under his supervision, the blue uniforms and white shirts of the past have been replaced by black, open-neck shirts in what he calls 'hi-tech' fibre, then surmounted with body armour, enormous belts carrying every possible gadget and silly looking baseball hats. His officers resemble Uruguayan riot police.

As it happens, I had Patrick Bishop's new book, 3Para, on my desk opened at some photographs of paratroopers in action in the Helmand province of Afghanistan. It was impossible not to notice that they go into action against the Taliban with little more protective wear than the police of North Wales use to confront Friday night drunks.

By the way has anyone heard of Help for Heroes?
You sound anti police. I was quite supportive of you as a person before but to be frank, I'm not anymore. Don't try to twist that into anything that suits your argument please. I completed a full Army career, served just about everywhere and have the badges to prove it, so kindly refrain from any speculative comment which you may have in mindfor your response.

The cops have a job to do. They need the kit. Don't use them as examples of how unfair the MoD has been to us. It's not fair to do so nor does it prove anything.

Labour aren't popular here so there is no need to over egg the custard. All your post did as far as I am concerned is use the police as an example with which to have a dig at Labour. Like I said, the police have a job to do, they may not be everyone's favourites, but some of us like the iea that they are there and have the equipment to do the job.
Perhaps if you had a better understanding of the police,you'd realise that they are not 'showered' with money as you allege.
To follow on. The police are so in favour of labour they are looking to have the law changed to give them the right to strike:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2414751.ece
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#11
RoyalAnglianMum said:
Biscuits AB - I didnt actually say that these were my views - just thought it an interesting article. The only bit that are my words are me asking is anyone knows anything about the Help for Heroes charity.
Interesting? Not really. Starting the bandwagon off, more likely.
 
#12
Biscuits - I am fully in support of the police - they do a great job too, one of the jobs that my son was thinking of before joining the infantry. I do have some understanding of gthe police as my father in law was a policeman for many many years before retiring as a Chief Inspector and he always encouraged my husband not to join the police as it was in a bad way then - low pay etc. No way can anyone think of me as anti-police. My husband did 22 years in the RAF and I myself did over 5 years in the Army too. My husband is a prison officer another of the services that are underfunded. I am sorry that you think less of me as a person but that is your view of which you are entitled.
 
#13
The new uniform shirt is just a sensible option when you're wearing BA. The black shirts are practical and allow heat management when you're sweating yer tits off under a vest.

As for the baseball caps, the keep the sun out of your eyes and the rain off your glasses (In my case) can't wait until we get the new shirts in my force.

The hats and shirts are the only new thing. Oh, and the shirts are the same price as the white ones with collar and tie, dunno about the baseball caps but they have to be cheaper than the ridiculous helmet.

Serving HMF members don't wear Barrack Dress/No2's on Ops/Exercise, why should we?

Dunno about being showered with money, the annual pay settlement seems to be going down the pan.

TASER? well, the options available to most plods are a baton or a small tin of CS/PAVA spray. Usually talking is a good option or the laying on of hands but when push comes to shove any tool is welcome.

To give an analogy, If a squaddie was told that he could only have nice sensitive weapons, this forum would be ranting about it "Why can't we have sensible tools for the job?"

With a baton, your only real options are strikes and holds using it as a lever.

Spray and you can hopefully blind/incapacitate someone until they stop.

TASER gives a limited standoff capability with minimum likelihood of the damage that can be inflicted by sparay/baton.

It won't solve everything but it's a good option to have.

And yes, I've been TASERed and it hurts but it's a damn sight better than being CS'd or having someone smack you with a metal baton.
 
#14
Biscuits_AB said:
The cops have a job to do. They need the kit. Don't use them as examples of how unfair the MoD has been to us. It's not fair to do so nor does it prove anything.

Perhaps if you had a better understanding of the police,you'd realise that they are not 'showered' with money as you allege.
Why do they need this kit? Any evidence put forward yet that this will help them solve crimes? This is just about control. 'Policing with consent' is now completely abandoned.

MoD is not the paymaster, Treasury is. Expenditure on any of the forces is an entirely political decision. This just shows what the politicos priorities really are.

Junior coppers are actually paid more for a considerably less dangerous job. In peacetime that might be acceptable, but not with the current levels of commitment. Take a good look at the increases in pay and pensions and other benefits.

'Better understanding'? I'm sorry, some of us believe we already have a pretty clear understanding of what goes on. Escalating numbers, increases in budgets, more and more Rambo kit, reduced crime detection and prevention, and fewer cops actually on the streets. At least that's how it is on my patch.
 
#15
"...whenever someone 'disobeys' a police officer..." In as much as being told to stop being violent or any other similar cisrcumstance where appropriate.

I hardly think (The odd power crazy dork aside) that it'll just be used to enforce littering tickets or someone who is just gobby. Most forces require a detailed report of use of force and current TASER has technology recording the date/time/usage which is not alterable by Plod.

"...One uniform can be relied on to support NA, the other to defend the Nation..."

If that particular line of thinking was accurate then the point could reasonably be made, that the most effective Supporters of NA, are HMF. After all, they are currently engaged in armed conflict at the behest of NA and Dubya.

To carry that line of thinking further, I s'pose that would mean that HMF all support NA/Dubya seeing as they are frequently engaged in violence and are in fact dying on a regular basis in support of those policies....

Bit of a crap line of thinking isn't it?

Police and HMF are different. HMF are grossly underpaid for the work they do, no dispute but to compare one with the other is comparing apples and pears...
 
#16
As a former serviceman and police officer, i can see why RoyalAnglianMum feels the ways she does, but I support the views of Biscuits_AB.

Richard Brunstrum has always been considered a 'maverick' Chief Constable and controversial in his views, especially on traffic policing. His sort is in the minority. There are plenty of Chiefs who now lean to the 'left' and have unswerving 'pc' credentials. The days of ex-service Chief officers are over. All now have degrees in some 'ology and have to follow the Home Office corporate line if they want promotion, hence the breed of Chief officers we now have in office.

The question of priorities over the police and military are political ones. The public, whether we like it or not, are more concerned about law and order in their own back yard, than soldiers fighting wars in obscure countries and the politicans know this. Hence the seemingly generous spending on the police.

We have a good example of how publicity and public awareness being raised over the treatment of wounded soldiers, has made the government sit up and provide more cash. The same example applies over the scandal of the woefully inadequate vehicles supplied to troops in Iraq and the consequent supply of various more suitable ones, eg Mastiff, Bulldog and Vector. All this only came about by embarrassing and putting pressure on the politicians.

When I first started my police career, the force was poorly equipped and badly paid. Riot equipment was non existant and the handy availablity of dustbin lids were utilised at that time. Over the decades things did improve and I now consider the police to be properly equipped, as they should be.
The fact that the military is not, is not the fault of the police.

Never forget that thousands of 'unarmed' officers are assaulted each year. Many are seriously injured and some lose their lives. I have been assaulted and it is a very frightening experience, especially when you think of the potential fatal consequences after the event.

So let's not hear of any more 'police bashing'. They get a raw enough deal from the press and the public. Believe me, we do have the best police in the world. They are more tolerant and efficient than all I have seen and are the most accountable by far. They need praise and support to do their job, not carping.

What we should all be doing is supporting the various military charities and campaigns to make things better for our service people.
 
#17
"...Why do they need this kit? Any evidence put forward yet that this will help them solve crimes? "

No it doesn't help to solve crime.

I carry/wear the following items and this is why:

Uniform trousers/Shirt - To cover my sinful nakedness and to identify myself as a plod.

Stab-Proof/Ballistic Vest - To try and prevent people putting holes in me when they pull a knife and I don't have one/To lessen the effects of being kicked/punched in the area covered.

Baton/Spray self defence

Latex gloves - Because I deal with filthy diseased people all the time

'Cuffs - Do I need to explain?

Radio - Likewise

Notebook/Umpteen forms/Trillions of pens - to record stuff

Digital Voice Recorder - To rebut complaints when I'm accused of being rude to people.

Torch(Little LED type not Humungous Maglite)

First Aid Kit

That's about it, some plods wear their gear on their belts, some use a load carrying vest over their Stabbie others vary between that.

Why do squaddies carry so much gear? Is it all just 'cause they like it? No, it's cause they need it innit?

Wake up, Dixon of Dock Green is dead.
 
#18
Biscuits_AB said:
western said:
As I pointed out on another thread:

Pte in Helmand £14K
PC in London £30K

It not hard to see who is valued the most
What comparison are we making here? A PC on £30k has done a few years. His/her rank does not equate to anything the Army has. What about comparing a Pte's wage with some one elses? What about yours? Or a school teacher or a long distance lorry driver perhaps? Or a bus driver in Edinburgh @ £25k starting? A Pte soldier is poorly paid but these continual comparisons with what the police earn prove nothing and are pointless. It's not the fault of the police that a soldier isn't valued by this Government? Do you honestly think that a Pte soldier should be paid £30k per anum or that a PC should be paid £14k per annum?
The figure quoted is straight of the Met site and is for a PC straight out of training and prior to any overtime.

A PC is a semi skilled labourer as is a Pte soldier and therefore I do think their wages should be about the same.
 
#19
Now, don't get me wrong here, because I'm not taking sides, but if the police get the right to take industrial action, just who is going to take over the duties of the various constabularies.
 
#20
Well said Highflight - I never intended this to turn into 'police bashing'. I am all for the police and agree they should be equipped properly for the job that they do. All I want when it comes down to it is for the Armed Forces to be properly equipped too for the job that they do, as I am sure all of you do.

I apologise if my putting this article on here makes people think that I am police bashing but that was never my intention. I have great respect for all the police and the job that they do - it is a job that I could never do, no way would I be brave enough.

Please dont forget too that there are a lot of prison officers who also deserve better pay and conditions and a lot of them are also assaulted each year - my husband amongst them.
 

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